Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Puberty Blockers. How exactly did we get here?

101 replies

AlisonDonut · 18/04/2024 12:32

I thought I'd write this as I see so many questions about why they are so contraversial and there is so much info being thrown about that it can be overwhelming.

So a brief history and how they were taken on by the Gender Clinics.

The main crux of the issue is that they are GnRH analogues. GnRH- which are gonadotropin-releasing hormones are released by the pituatory glands and GnRH analogues stop this process from happening. They control and regulate the development of the sex hormones in both males and females.

So they were used decades ago to 'treat' homosexuals when homosexuality was illegal. If a homosexual was arrested for having gay sex for example, the option was to go to jail or agree to take this drug. One key person who this happened to was Alan Turing, who later committed suicide. They have been used as well to 'treat' paedophiles.

They are also used to treat 'precocious puberty' in very young children, and are used for a very short time due to the known affects of the drug. It is also used for endometriosis.

Sidebar: the FDA in the USA reports 25,000 adverse effects, and it is linked to at least 1,500 deaths. And that is for use 'on book' ie being used for the things is it regulated to be used for.

So back in 2003, when the main cohort of people wanting to 'transition' was males, somewhere in a clinic in Amsterdam, it was suggested that these GnRH analogue drugs could be used in males who were being treated for 'gender dysphoria' because the drugs would suppress the physical development of the voice, the growth of a beard, the jawline and height and what grown up men who had 'transitioned' wanted to look at was allowing other men to pass as women more easily when they grew up.

They tried this drug on Patient Zero, and drug seemed to work.

Sidebar: a 22 year follow up study on Patient Zero reports that he hadn't managed to sustain any long term relationship, was ashamed of his genitals, but was assessed as a positive outcome because he had a job. It was reported that 'the concept of regret in transition isn't the most helpful framework'.

In 2004 meanwhile, at the GIDS in the Tavistock in London, Sue Evans reported that this was now being prescribed and there was no evidence as to the success of these drugs and a 16 year old boy had been referred for these drugs after 4 sessions. She blew the whistle but it was completely ignored.

Sidebar: it is impossible to do a blind or double blind study on puberty blockers as if a placebo is given, puberty will continue to develop so it becomes obvious very quickly.

It appears that across the board, the drugs were being used, off book ie they have never been approved for use to block puberty as a treatment for 'gender dysphoria' and the use ramped up over the years. The useage was also expanded to girls.

In 2011, the clinic in the Netherlands did a follow up of 70 people who had been prescribed these drugs as teenagers. They seemed to have done two surveys on them. The Utrecht Gender Dysphoria scale was used, which was initially done in their actual sex and the follow up which they used the opposite sex scale to measure the success, [the survery switcheroo]. They also used another 'Body Image Scale] which was also swapped out for the opposite sex scale. It is unclear how long any of these people had been on the Puberty Blockers, and unclear if they ever asked about any other side effects of the drugs.

Out of the people that responded, 15 dropped out [didn't respond]. They said they wanted to see who had gone on to full surgery but in other reports I found that these HAD gone on to full surgery, so who knows. They found that issues had been had by the other 55, of which some didn't fulfil the surgery requirements because they now were obese, or had diabetes, some refused to complete the survey and others couldn't be operated on due to 'short penis length'. It is unclear how many of the original 70 proceeded to surgery or whether it was 'successful' or not. It is unclear how much input the Dutch Clinic had with anything after the puberty blockers. It in unclear if there were any actual girls in this cohort.

Sidebar: if you start searching for treatment of homosexuals using Lupron the internet takes you down a road, and the end of which is that 'Lupron is no longer available'. However there are many names for the same drugs now. If you start searching for treatment of precocious puberty or endometriosis you get a swathe of reports on the damage and side effects and catastrophic issues from people whose lives have been destroyed by this drug, even after just a few weeks treatment. If you however search for puberty blockers, there is just the 'safe, effective, reversible' information from a huge range of clinics and what I would consider reputable medical insititutions.

The reason that the Cass report took 4 years is the impossibility of actually finding out anything concrete from any studies, it is like trying to nail oily spaghetti to a jelly wall using prawn crackers. The internet resists any cross referencing from one 'treatment' and named drug across different treatment protocols and links between one report saying the drug has massive catastrophic side effects and it should be a last and final treatment to another saying it is completely safe and reversible.

I've synthesised a fair amount of this information from the interview between Stella O'Mally and Sasha Ayed and the two medics who developed the Dutch Protocol, and using their actual words.

Michael Biggs did a deep dive into this protocol here which establishes that the use was documented as a standard treatment in 2001 by the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association which later became WPATH. Two years before the Dutch Clinicians said that the drug regime began being used.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
Cailin66 · 08/05/2024 12:29

AlisonDonut · 21/04/2024 18:27

It is all so heartbreaking.

Thank you for your posts. Very informative.

AlisonDonut · 08/05/2024 13:13

ScoldsBridal · 08/05/2024 11:53

I wish I could get hold of a copy of the C4 documentary I watched in 1996. It followed people going to Amsterdam to transition and I remember watching with fascination.

I started a thread about it on here 5 years ago (different username) and it’s got some info about who made it. I never got to watch it again but wonder if anyone else has/can manage to find a copy? It would be fascinating to watch now nearly 30 years later. Watching it from the perspective of being a parent of teenagers navigating this current landscape will certainly be different, and I imagine quite chilling.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3729462-1996-C4-doc-on-transgender-kids-and-puberty-blockers?reply=91167378

I've got to go out now but this is slap bag in the middle of the time when the WPATH guidelines got changed so thank you, I'll have a look into this later.

OP posts:
MagpiePi · 08/05/2024 14:03

Finally, for me the other vital thing in the climate is the absolute blind trust in the medical establishment, used to be known as white coat syndrome, but seems to be at an extraordinary level right now. There is total blind trust in 'science' yet dig into any topic you choose, not just this one, and you will find a science that has sadly been corrupted by money and power dynamics - research and the way in which research is funded and conducted is generally pretty horrifying, yet Science has the best marketing campaign of all time. Again, this climate of blind trust in medicine has propelled puberty blockers forward to the state we are in now.

I think that the blind trust is not necessarily with the best science, it is more with the science that best fits your own narrative and views (mis)informed by social media.

OP posts:
EdenPalmersVenomViper · 08/05/2024 19:21

Does anyone know if Oestrogen is still made with pregnant mare's urine?

I can remember in the 2000s how there was a big push online to make people aware of how these mares were kept to enable the collection of the urine (awful) and also how people in the US/Canada could give a home to a PMU foal. These foals were a 'waste' product.

JustTalkToThem · 08/05/2024 19:32

hamstersarse · 08/05/2024 12:25

This is all very interesting and horrifying at the same time. For me when I think about how we got here, there are a few things that really spring out for me.

Firstly, the climate in which this happened. We had been experimenting with synthetic hormones for a few decades by the time the Dutch protocol came about via the pill and HRT. I personally think even these treatments have outcomes that haven't really been discussed /examined in any great detail, especially the pill. I have seen recent research showing that the pill really does change female behaviours (how attracted they are to males, fertility etc) and does have some health impacts, despite it being marketed as essentially risk free. But this climate where synthetic hormones were completely normalised paved the way for this type of treatment.

Secondly, just the general climate of 'goodness' and the old chestnut of virtue signaling / narcissism that has increased over the previous decade (maybe social media, lack of community, who knows) but the trailblazers for this treatment (such as Susie from Mermaids) are without doubt narcissists looking for public praise for their virtue. Just the current climate in general enables these narcissists to operate via social media and under the guise of progressive politics and 'yay we are super progressive people helping a minority be their authentic selves'

Finally, for me the other vital thing in the climate is the absolute blind trust in the medical establishment, used to be known as white coat syndrome, but seems to be at an extraordinary level right now. There is total blind trust in 'science' yet dig into any topic you choose, not just this one, and you will find a science that has sadly been corrupted by money and power dynamics - research and the way in which research is funded and conducted is generally pretty horrifying, yet Science has the best marketing campaign of all time. Again, this climate of blind trust in medicine has propelled puberty blockers forward to the state we are in now.

It's all rather depressing.

Just a quick FYI: That's not called white coat syndrome - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_coat_hypertension

White coat hypertension (WHT), more commonly known as white coat syndrome, is a form of labile hypertension[1] in which people exhibit a blood pressure level above the normal range in a clinical setting, although they do not exhibit it in other settings.[2] It is believed that the phenomenon is due to anxiety experienced during a clinic visit.[3]

White coat hypertension - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_coat_hypertension

Faffertea · 08/05/2024 22:14

Thank you for the thread @AlisonDonut though it is frankly horrifying and as mum to an autistic ds I couldn’t bring myself to read about the children given Lupron to ‘cure’ their autism.

Is there any sense as to why the change in outlook and prescribing PBs? Because they could and wanted to see what happened? Because they saw themselves as trailblazers, pioneers of medical science? Or other, more nefarious motivations around creating a cohort of people who are legally of consenting age but with the bodies of children?

AlisonDonut · 08/05/2024 22:28

Faffertea · 08/05/2024 22:14

Thank you for the thread @AlisonDonut though it is frankly horrifying and as mum to an autistic ds I couldn’t bring myself to read about the children given Lupron to ‘cure’ their autism.

Is there any sense as to why the change in outlook and prescribing PBs? Because they could and wanted to see what happened? Because they saw themselves as trailblazers, pioneers of medical science? Or other, more nefarious motivations around creating a cohort of people who are legally of consenting age but with the bodies of children?

I am hesitant to make any value judgements, and am trying to stick to what the evidence shows. Problem is, so much has disappeared. Leaving this 'passing' concept, which isn't borne out when the trials were on girls.

Make of that what you will. None of it makes sense. It's like one of those magic eye pictures in jigsaw form, you are supposed to see 'males passing' as the reason but the pieces are not showing that picture.

OP posts:
AlisonDonut · 09/05/2024 08:54

Watched this yesterday.

In which Genevive Gluck states that it was Eli Coleman who suggested the use of puberty suppressants.

Prior to WPATH, when it was still the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association (HBIGDA), he promoted the use of Lupron [their reference not mine] to castrate sex offenders and it was whilst he was WPATH president that the Standards of Care were changed.

https://www.transgendermap.com/issues/psychology/eli-coleman/

Sidebar: He stood down from the WPATH presidency in 2003 it would seem and...

Following the speech, HBIGDA’s incoming President Walter Meyer, M.D. vowed to pursue Dr. Coleman’s 10-point plan:

  1. Promote sexual health including the elimination of barriers to sexual health
  2. Learn from other cultures
  3. Let old paradigms die and new paradigms emerge
  4. Provide access to optimal care
  5. Provide training to allied health professionals
  6. Promote sound and ethical research
  7. End stigma and discrimination
  8. Change laws and social policies
  9. Change religious views
  10. Promote social tolerance for diversity

Another Sidebar...they hate J Michael Bailey on this site...and have done for years.
https://www.transgendermap.com/issues/psychology/j-michael-bailey/

No wonder they got his paper on a study of ROGD published in 2023 taken down - lets remember it was taken down because he and his mystery co-author didn't get the 'correct' consent to publish the study that they told the participants they were studying.

So if you care to download it it is below:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10102036/

OP posts:
RethinkingLife · 09/05/2024 10:22

Re: Medicating Normal

A family member was prescribed benzodiazepines back in the days before the realisation of how addictive it was and what the long-term impacts were. Her GP stopped her prescription overnight after she'd been on it for years. She ended up in hospital her withdrawal was so severe. That was back in the 70s or 80s.

I'm surprised that anyone gets this for longer than 4 weeks. Where are the pharmacy flags in their own records and those of the GP/primary care physician?

theDudesmummy · 09/05/2024 10:26

I have been involved in a number of cases of successful litigation against doctors for prescribing long term benzos. I believe and hope that the puberty blocker litigations will soon start to come along.

AlisonDonut · 09/05/2024 10:48

If any of the information in this thread helps any litigants I'd be over the moon.

OP posts:
Datun · 09/05/2024 10:53

AlisonDonut · 09/05/2024 10:48

If any of the information in this thread helps any litigants I'd be over the moon.

I'm not on Twitter, Alison, is Twitter aware of this thread? I was thinking specifically of gender critical solicitors.

AlisonDonut · 09/05/2024 10:59

I don't think so, I've not put it on there.

I am still digging into the history, but if anyone else want to dig into Eli Coleman, and what was going on in the years up to 1998, and finds any essential documentation that they haven't deleted yet, pop it on here!

OP posts:
OP posts:
GeorgeOrwellsTurningGrave · 16/07/2024 08:13

AlisonDonut · 16/07/2024 07:08

Just came here to see if anyone had posted this extraordinarily clear piece on the impact of puberty blockers. Absolutely shocking that we got here and nobody asked these questions.

Faffertea · 16/07/2024 14:18

What an extraordinarily well written piece that was. Thank you for sharing it.

Shortshriftandlethal · 16/07/2024 15:10

unwashedanddazed · 19/04/2024 16:15

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/apa.17150

Link to a recent review of all the available research on puberty blockers and brain function.

TLDR: Not many studies; all bad news.

"The impact of pubertal suppression on measures of neuropsychological function is an urgent research priority"........

Can there really ever be a good reason to suppress puberty?
That such measures might be actively desired or pursued so that someone can boost their acdemic or professional profile via "reasearch priorities" is very dystopian.

Am i right in thinking It the two new NHS gender clinics were set to take part in clinical trials on the long term effects of puberty blockers, or am I mistaken?
And if so, how does that square with puberty blockers being banned?

FOJN · 16/07/2024 15:48

This lecture goes back as far as Christine Jorgensen but about half way through the speaker discusses how the idea of early transition came about. The poor quality of the research and analysis of the data is quite shocking.

yesmen · 23/07/2024 18:59

DameMaud · 18/04/2024 12:38

Great idea for a thread!

Agreed

AlisonDonut · 23/10/2024 20:47

Adding this for the record...

https://archive.ph/sDGYb

OP posts:
NotBadConsidering · 23/10/2024 20:53

AlisonDonut · 23/10/2024 20:47

Adding this for the record...

https://archive.ph/sDGYb

An older Dutch study <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.md/o/sDGYb/pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20646177/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">had found that puberty blockers improved well-being

This isn’t true of course. An older Dutch study showed an improvement in gender dysphoria scoring, but only because they switched the questionnaires around between males and females.

So this hidden study showed the same as the previous one: no improvement.

RethinkingLife · 28/02/2025 07:49

Link to NIHR Pathways Study award information.

https://fundingawards.nihr.ac.uk/award/NIHR167530

Shortshriftandlethal · 28/02/2025 08:19

That document seems to start off with a foundational acceptance of the concepts of gender incongruence. and gender identity..using language such as " the sex given at birth". That surely does not bode well for academic impartiality?

"The PATHWAYS study aims to find out how the NHS can best support children and young people with gender incongruence. Gender incongruence is when a person feels their gender identity differs from the sex that they were given at birth. Some people with gender incongruence want their bodies to be more like their gender identity"

Shortshriftandlethal · 28/02/2025 08:22

There seems to be minimal gatekeeping as to which children are accepted onto the trial. Their parents basically have to agree to it.