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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Humza Yousaf baffling tweet (TW: about s*xual assault)

93 replies

ValerieDoonican · 18/04/2024 10:14

He can't really believe this can he?https://x.com/HumzaYousaf/status/1780538428158836800

Humza Yousaf baffling tweet (TW: about s*xual assault)
OP posts:
CheeseSandwichRiskAssessment · 18/04/2024 18:08

It's the "unlikely" that grates.

Snowypeaks · 18/04/2024 23:03

334bu · 18/04/2024 12:17

He knew what sexual assault was when he was complaining about Westminster Governments treatment of female refugees.

Also, how can you tweet that and yet be cool about men in women's prisons?

They really do believe that a man declaring he is a woman is thereby immediately purged of any urge to commit male pattern violence.

Boiledbeetle · 18/04/2024 23:12

I had always assumed, prior to the last few years that those in positions of power would have someone making sure they didn't make an idiot of themselves in public.

Oh how wrong I was!

Snowypeaks · 18/04/2024 23:19

KestrelMoon · 18/04/2024 12:33

I understand his tweet perfectly.

He isn’t talking about actual a rape, but the threat to do so.

It’s criminal to threaten to rape a person, regardless of their sex.
If they actually penetrated an orifice with their penis, then it would still be rape, regardless of sex.

Male on female or male penetration with a penis is still rape.

If the man threatening rape thinks he is threatening a woman, then that is driven by misogyny because he is acting on the basis of his perception.

Yes, but there was an example he gave about "following her down the street" or something so this is in person, not online.
Also, as PPs have said, thinking a man is a woman is covered by perceptive discrimination.
The only reason to put special men in this act is to destroy the meaning of the word "woman", conflate gender identity and sex and validate the special men by enabling them to say they are victims of misogyny, so that must mean they are definitely women, yay.

anothernamitynamenamechange · 18/04/2024 23:50

Rape is already (in theory if not practice) illegal
Ditto attempted rape
Ditto threatening someone with violence (rape counts as violence)

So I don't know why Humza wants to use rape as a way to illustrate his point. It also feels uncomfortable because, while men get raped less often than women they do get raped and I don't think the rape of women gets extra badness points because its rape+mysogyny rather than just boring old rape. We don't need more laws.

What would actually help is maybe if they prosecuted people for rape, and actually locked men convicted of rape away (not in a woman's prison) rather than feeling sorry for them because they are under 25 etc etc.

Merrymouse · 19/04/2024 06:23

anothernamitynamenamechange · 18/04/2024 23:50

Rape is already (in theory if not practice) illegal
Ditto attempted rape
Ditto threatening someone with violence (rape counts as violence)

So I don't know why Humza wants to use rape as a way to illustrate his point. It also feels uncomfortable because, while men get raped less often than women they do get raped and I don't think the rape of women gets extra badness points because its rape+mysogyny rather than just boring old rape. We don't need more laws.

What would actually help is maybe if they prosecuted people for rape, and actually locked men convicted of rape away (not in a woman's prison) rather than feeling sorry for them because they are under 25 etc etc.

I don't think the rape of women gets extra badness points because its rape+mysogyny rather than just boring old rape. We don't need more laws

Maybe he mentioned tape because of this:

https://www.gov.scot/news/proposals-for-new-bill-to-tackle-misogyny/

  • the creation of a new offence of Issuing Threats of, or Invoking, Rape or Sexual Assault or Disfigurement of Women and Girls online and offline

The impact seems to be that in itself it’s less serious to threaten a man or boy with rape?

Whether or not Rape is more serious if it is aggravated by hate, if there is a specific history of misogyny, wouldn’t that be covered in the same way as other characteristics?

Isn’t the point that threats of rape are not taken seriously and the prosecution rate for rape is so low - and this predominantly impacts women - not that there is need for a special law for women.

Have I missed something? Do men regularly threaten each other with rape as bantz?

Proposals for new Bill to tackle misogyny

Public to be consulted on laws to criminalise misogynistic conduct.

https://www.gov.scot/news/proposals-for-new-bill-to-tackle-misogyny/

nutmeg7 · 19/04/2024 08:19

I find it simplistic, and indicative of his lack of understanding or insight into the many more common ways misogyny manifests itself in women’s lives.

He jumps straight to rape as being his example of every day misogyny. Presumably because it is an obviously disgusting and serious crime. But it is already a crime, I would like to see him engage with more insidious misogyny.

Such as suggesting the belief that you are a woman somehow gives you understanding of the lived experience of actual women.

CocoapuffPuff · 19/04/2024 08:24

There seems to be an awful lot of mind reading required in all these new laws.

Law should be based on facts, on actions, on fucking evidence, not on "what I think Jessie next door was thinking when ma wean popped off tae the school bus in his mini skirt and bondage straps"

Signalbox · 19/04/2024 09:02

KestrelMoon · 18/04/2024 13:23

Example, you are an Islamaphobe and you attack a woman wearing a head scarf, ripping it off because you think it is a hijab.

Lo and behold, the victim is a woman with alopecia and isn’t Muslim.

You are still guilty of an islamaphobic hate crime, because you perceived her as Muslim and your intent was to attack a woman for being a Muslim.

Hate crimes are always based on the victim being perceived as or passing as a vulnerable group.

If the person isn’t perceived as or passing as a member of the vulnerable group, then that type of hate crime cannot be applied.

”If the person isn’t perceived as or passing as a member of the vulnerable group, then that type of hate crime cannot be applied.”

I can see how this works in terms of ethnicity/ race or sexuality because if you don’t know someone is from a certain ethnic group how can you target them on that basis.

It’s a bit different for trans women though isn’t it because on the whole you can spot a non passing TW from a mile off and recognise they are a TW on the basis that you can see they are a man in a dress or a man with various other signifiers of “womanhood”. So you are simultaneously perceiving a man and a TW at the same time.

But if TW are considered to be women for the purpose of the act then your perception of the attacker as a man isn’t going to save you because for most people we will also be perceiving a man who believes themselves to be a woman.

If I see an obvious trans woman in the ladies and I start stirring up hatred against him (aka calling him a man, using male pronouns and shouting at him to get out the ladies) then my perception of him as a man isn’t going to save me from being investigated under the misogyny legislation because that legislation recognise TW as women. The perception of the TW will be that you have targeted them on the basis that they are a TW not a man and TWAW for the purpose of the legislation.

There’s obviously some complexity here and I imagine it would end up going up the court hierarchy. But I don’t think it’s as simple as perception of the attacker v intent.

cordeliachaseatemyhandbag · 19/04/2024 09:07

He needs removed from offfice asap!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/04/2024 09:22

If I see an obvious trans woman in the ladies and I start stirring up hatred against him (aka calling him a man, using male pronouns and shouting at him to get out the ladies) then my perception of him as a man isn’t going to save me from being investigated under the misogyny legislation because that legislation recognise TW as women. The perception of the TW will be that you have targeted them on the basis that they are a TW not a man and TWAW for the purpose of the legislation.

This.

Merrymouse · 19/04/2024 09:26

Signalbox · 19/04/2024 09:02

”If the person isn’t perceived as or passing as a member of the vulnerable group, then that type of hate crime cannot be applied.”

I can see how this works in terms of ethnicity/ race or sexuality because if you don’t know someone is from a certain ethnic group how can you target them on that basis.

It’s a bit different for trans women though isn’t it because on the whole you can spot a non passing TW from a mile off and recognise they are a TW on the basis that you can see they are a man in a dress or a man with various other signifiers of “womanhood”. So you are simultaneously perceiving a man and a TW at the same time.

But if TW are considered to be women for the purpose of the act then your perception of the attacker as a man isn’t going to save you because for most people we will also be perceiving a man who believes themselves to be a woman.

If I see an obvious trans woman in the ladies and I start stirring up hatred against him (aka calling him a man, using male pronouns and shouting at him to get out the ladies) then my perception of him as a man isn’t going to save me from being investigated under the misogyny legislation because that legislation recognise TW as women. The perception of the TW will be that you have targeted them on the basis that they are a TW not a man and TWAW for the purpose of the legislation.

There’s obviously some complexity here and I imagine it would end up going up the court hierarchy. But I don’t think it’s as simple as perception of the attacker v intent.

Edited

If it’s like the other laws, perception and intent of the perpetrator is the only important thing, so it covers men and women and their identity is irrelevant - perhaps more relevantly if somebody is perceived to be a woman, it doesn’t matter whether they identify as a trans man or non binary.

Yousaf could easily have tweeted this instead.

ValerieDoonican · 19/04/2024 09:28

@Signalbox I see what you mean. You're a good explainer!

OP posts:
SinnerBoy · 19/04/2024 09:30

Merrymouse · Today 06:23

https://www.gov.scot/news/proposals-for-new-bill-to-tackle-misogyny/

the creation of a new offence of Issuing Threats of, or Invoking, Rape or Sexual Assault or Disfigurement of Women and Girls online and offline

If that's the case, are we going to see large numbers of trans extremists being prosecuted for their numerous threats of rape and sexual assault against women? Or does it only work one way?

Merrymouse · 19/04/2024 09:31

OK I’m wrong and confused about who is doing the perceiving:

From the Met Police:

“A hate crime is defined as 'Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice based on a person's race or perceived race; religion or perceived religion; sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation; disability or perceived disability and any crime motivated by hostility or prejudice against a person who is transgender or perceived to be transgender.'”

Although we do know that intent is relevant to whether a crime has been committed.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/04/2024 09:32

If that's the case, are we going to see large numbers of trans extremists being prosecuted for their numerous threats of rape and sexual assault against women? Or does it only work one way?

I think you've answered your own question there.

Merrymouse · 19/04/2024 09:37

Merrymouse · 19/04/2024 09:31

OK I’m wrong and confused about who is doing the perceiving:

From the Met Police:

“A hate crime is defined as 'Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice based on a person's race or perceived race; religion or perceived religion; sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation; disability or perceived disability and any crime motivated by hostility or prejudice against a person who is transgender or perceived to be transgender.'”

Although we do know that intent is relevant to whether a crime has been committed.

Although thinking about I think JKR has demonstrated that you need more than the ‘victim’s’ perception to demonstrate a hate crime. Intent is still the most important thing.

SinnerBoy · 19/04/2024 09:42

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 09:32

I think you've answered your own question there.

I know, it's fucking rage inducing.

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