Page 13 | Libraries promoting body mutilation as “joy” in Norfolk

CarobBean72 · 2024-04-12T08:28:43+00:00

Anyone here from Norfolk? Norwich Millennium Library has a display of “Trans Joy”, apparently aimed at children & young people, which IMHO promotes body mutilation & self harm of women & girls & glorifies drug use. In the wake of the Cass Report it’s incredibly irresponsible. It includes images of hypodermic needles for injecting testosterone, a packer & mastectomy scars, with the slogan “Self-made men play God right”. Most disturbing is a small figurine of a woman’s lower half, cut off at waist & knees, bearing what appears to be a hysterectomy scar & what is either a pseudo-phallus ( an appendage made from a flap of tissue removed from the woman’s arm or thigh, rolled up and sewn to the groin to mimic a penis ) or a hypertrophied clitoris, one of the often painful effects of testosterone on the female body. The display is accessible to children as the cabinets stand only a couple of feet high, designed for a child’s eye line and it’s placed next to the 8-14 book section. The cases are by the entrance - not noticeable when you go in but inescapable when you leave. I can’t believe someone okayed this. If it was promoting anorexia or cutting or glorifying steroid abuse to children and teenagers, we’d all see it for what it is. Instead, it’s promoting self-mutilation under the banner of “Trans Joy”. It’s especially irresponsible in the week the Cass Review revealed how poor the evidence base for so-called “gender affirming care” is and how little followup there has been to assess regret and de-transition rates. Ive been trying to find a contact for the head of Norfolk Library Services - it’s a woman called Kerry Murray, who is also the Safeguarding Lead! But I can’t find any email listing for her. Any suggestions? Sharing images with trepidation: it’s a horror show! **Post edited by MNHQ**

CriticalCondition · 29/04/2024 20:33

WaterThyme · 29/04/2024 20:27

I think PeskySquirrel made an apposite comment at about 14.37. How do we know the Hedgehog isn’t generated by ChatGPT or another AI?

Evidence:

Reads Transwidows and concludes they are women whose husbands have died. No human would do that.
when originally unable to determine what MAP stands for, doesn’t ask and makes an unlikely guess, not taking into account the implied sarcasm of the questioner
says they are not a man but has made no claim to any female experience in spite of being on a feminist board.
writes in a curiously flat mechanical style even when referring to matters they describe as emotional.

I agree.

theDudesmummy · 29/04/2024 21:12

Yeah, the Wikipedia style lecture on DSDs did come across a lot like AI output. Or a first year undergraduate whose degree is not in any form of science and is pretty Dunning Kruger about biology..

Also waiting for the clownfish!

Igneococcus · 29/04/2024 21:28

Have we ever been called "stagnant" before?

Newnamepls · 29/04/2024 21:42

BeHappyHedgehog · 29/04/2024 15:59

Thank you for sharing. I believe I have learned a lot from people on this thread. I have looked into pieces sent to me so it feels that I will be exiting this discussion with more knowledge. As I mentioned in a different reply, the reason why I specifically didn't read further into other sections of the website was because the "Transwidows" section implied transgenderism was the root of mental illnesses. If the language was more neutral & didn't entangle the two I would've loved to learn more, just not at the expense of being told that my identity is the root of all problems. I did mention that if anyone was willing to send through quotes or elaborations to do with the website, so that I can learn without having to read the parts that I find harmful, I would greatly appreciate it & that point still stands.

Having personal perspective definitely plays a part in my viewpoint because for starters I know gender dysphoria is real & so is my identity; if I'm experiencing it & I have a community who can vouch for themselves experiencing it too, to me that's secure knowledge — that undeniably, people with identities that aren't congruent with their sex exist. Seeing descriptions like "woman" of the pieces although the exhibit is very clearly about trans visibility paints a picture of somewhat denial, or even erasure of identities. In no way, shape or form I'm trying to invalidate anyone on here, I'm simply saying that our existence is real too. It's nothing to be scared of, & the backlash my friend's art has faced shows that it's still not seen as valid. People shouldn't feel threatened due to our existence because there's space for all of us. Correct me if I'm wrong, but compared to the original post & replies before mine, I have kept my posts respectful. I didn't deny anyone's lived experience & how they choose to live or resort to snarky or even disrespectful comments & name calling that I have now received from others. Regardless of that I'm glad that I've been able to have a few constructive exchanges with people, those are very enlightening

edit: Also thank you for the link!

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Hi hedgehog. I had anorexia for a long time as a teenager and into my twenties. I knew other anorexics existed too because I spent a lot of time online chatting with them and exchanging tips about how to ‘be better’ at it. I wholeheartedly believed every single thing in my life would be better if I lost more weight. Didn’t matter how much I actually lost. Always more. It felt like my identity. I had a community of people experiencing it and knew it was real. It was real.

That doesn’t mean it’s something that should have been supported, promoted, encouraged or affirmed though.

SidewaysOtter · 29/04/2024 21:49

Igneococcus · 29/04/2024 21:28

Have we ever been called "stagnant" before?

Not that I can see.

Anyone got a full house?

nutmeg7 · 29/04/2024 22:04

BeHappyHedgehog · 29/04/2024 14:57

Off the top of my head I can think of a couple of studies that I learned in Psychology, they had to do with neuroanatomy & they found that when compared with a control group of biological women & men, brain scans showed that brain anatomy in trans men resembles biological men more than biological women, & the ones of trans women are like those of biological women. It has been a couple of years now since I looked into those so I've only been able to dig out the Kruijver et al 2000 study on neurons & Rametti et al 2001 study on white matter in the brain. If you'd be interested in more evidence I'd be happy to look into more tho!

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Yes, but they didn't control for sexual orientation, and when that was controlled for, it seemed that what was being picked up (if statistically signifant) was more correlated with being same-sex attracted than with any gender identity. i.e. males who were attracted to males (regardless of if they thought of themselves as women) had brains that were closer to the typical female range, and vice versa for females, but the overlap of patterns suggestive of male and female brains is so enormous that differences are tiny and very hard to correlate.

nutmeg7 · 29/04/2024 22:21

BeHappyHedgehog · 29/04/2024 01:27

Thank you for sharing the link, it seems really interesting; I will read further through it tomorrow. I agree that there should be more studies done on the subject, & I hope that detrans will be asked about their reasons for detransioning. I'm also wondering whether the researchers' idea of detransition would include all people who stopped hormone therapy, as many trans people stop taking hormones once they achieve desired results, to have a biological child etc.

When saying cis, I wasn't referring to the members of the forum, I meant cis people in general, speaking objectively. Cis as in short for the medical term cisgender, someone who's gender identity aligns with the sex assigned to them at birth. I was using it to compare to the antonym trans.

I just checked out the Transwidows website, to my understanding it's a site of mostly women who have been widowed whose ex-partners were trans. I'm seeing a lot of language that links them being trans with their mental illnesses, I find that questionable. Does this website consider being transgender as a mental illness that leads to the deaths? Obviously I imagine living most of your life playing a role that you don't fit, hearing people's devaluing/hateful approach to the topic & then facing backlash after coming out can lead to a lot of internal difficulties, especially when coming out later in life when you already have built a family. I think anyone who struggled really hard with mental illnesses & passed due to suicide has left behind a lot of grief & some people feeling conflicted or maybe even resentful if the relationship wasn't healthy. I'm worried there might be a misconception on their transness playing a part.

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It's "widow" used metaphorically, not literally. The women have experienced the loss of their husbands as they decided they were in fact actually women. These women (the actual biological ones, not the self-identified male women) experienced the loss of the person they had married, hence "trans widow".

It is much discussed in psychiatric circles whether the frequenly poor mental health and co-morbidities of many trans-identified people is the cause of them seeking a trans identity in the first place, or is the result of living as a trans person in the world. Either hypothesis is plausible, and the explanation that you "prefer" might depend on your degree of personal investment. Research should be done to find out.
My observation, and it is an anecdote only, is that among the handful of trans-identified people of my aquaintance, none of them are living uncomplicated happy lives, and most are struggling to function reliably in normal life, whether at work or in their educational studies.

borntobequiet · 29/04/2024 22:26

Well I had a go in Copilot on the subject of transwidows and what it came up with was considerably more sensible and truthful (barring the occasional use of cis) than our recent friend. So perhaps they are just a person who appears to be less humane than artificial intelligence.

namechange9357 · 30/04/2024 09:40

nutmeg7 · 29/04/2024 22:04

Yes, but they didn't control for sexual orientation, and when that was controlled for, it seemed that what was being picked up (if statistically signifant) was more correlated with being same-sex attracted than with any gender identity. i.e. males who were attracted to males (regardless of if they thought of themselves as women) had brains that were closer to the typical female range, and vice versa for females, but the overlap of patterns suggestive of male and female brains is so enormous that differences are tiny and very hard to correlate.

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I was taught about those studies when they were new. That’s a long time ago and it’s not fresh in my mind but I recall the studies being based on extremely small samples and at least one was based on cadavers? We were taught you couldn’t really conclude anything from the studies because of sample size, confounding effect of life experience shaping brain structures, and failing to control for various factors. If these findings haven’t been backed up over the intervening decades that tells you something in itself?

misscockerspaniel · 30/04/2024 16:29

borntobequiet · 29/04/2024 22:26

Well I had a go in Copilot on the subject of transwidows and what it came up with was considerably more sensible and truthful (barring the occasional use of cis) than our recent friend. So perhaps they are just a person who appears to be less humane than artificial intelligence.

Have they gone? I couldn't decide if he was a mansplainer or just Aston using Copilot as some sort of response to the thread we have written in various languages, which was our response to them scraping our data!

FlameoftheWest · 01/05/2024 02:22

BeHappyHedgehog · 29/04/2024 11:14

Cool, I am studying crime & take great interest in it — if you have any reasons that interlink your job with how you view transitioning feel free to share as I'd like to learn more about your viewpoint. Normalising trans representation & creating awareness about minority groups alike shouldn't be taken as something that will cause harm to any vulnerable groups or "make them turn" — after all, it's nothing short of educating that different people live in this world. When exhibits about disabilities are held, I am sure people don't take it as the disabled community trying to encourage more people to "become" disabled.

Could you elaborate what about said paragraph concerned you if you can?

Do you think it's strange how there are high rates of LGBTQIA+ people seeking out wellbeing services? Statistically, they face much higher risks of abuse of all types due to hate crime which I'm sure you know leads to many difficulties. I'd say that many trans people especially face intense backlash so it makes sense why so many struggle psychologically as this world wasn't made with them in mind. I think it's great that services like MAP exist to help all people who struggle & high rates of said group just go to show that society makes it way harder for them to peacefully function. What are your thoughts?

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@BeHappyHedgehog I am not sure how to answer your request in a fair and objective way :

1 “Cool, I am studying crime & take great interest in it.” - You need to be more precise. You do not indicate whether you studying crime in general, specific types of criminal behaviour, the role of the criminal justice system- retribution or rehabilitation ( and how much public opinion can influence policy) , what factors are more likely to lead to Criminal behaviour ( nature/ nurture), the demise of the role of the church, the breakdown of the family unit, the lack of positive male role models, the increased inequality in society, changes in the ethnic breakdown of the UK. ( eg does the ethnic and religious breakdown of the Prison Estate mirror wider society.), why are biological women treated more harshly than men? Why are some many prisoners diagnosed with mental health issues? ,

Question for you to consider- if you send a male to prison for violence against women/ blacks/ lesbians etc including combinations of above. Once released will they be rehabilitated?

Those are just a few of the factors that could be considered.

”Normalising trans representation.” Since trans is a social construct rather than a biological fact. which elements of the trans community should be normalised? Do you have any exceptions. How about my former client that identified as gay, but liked dressing as a woman and was convicted of raping two brothers under 10. Your comments suggest that that is acceptable :

sexual orientation- gay
trans identity- woman
sexual attraction- MAP

So all good 👍 then

The number of young people with mental health issues is dramatically on the rise, the number of young people who are assessed as neuro diverse, autistic

etc. is also rising. So it is disingenuous to state:

“Do you think it's strange how there are high rates of LGBTQIA+ people seeking out wellbeing services? Statistically, they face much higher risks of abuse of all types due to hate crime which I'm sure you know leads to many difficulties. I'd say that many trans people especially face intense backlash so it makes sense why so many struggle psychologically as this world wasn't made with them in mind. I think it's great that services like MAP exist to help all people who struggle & high rates of said group just go to show that society makes it way harder for them to peacefully function. What are your thoughts?

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@BeHappyHedgehog I am not sure how to answer your request in a fair and objective way :

1 “Cool, I am studying crime & take great interest in it.” - You need to be more precise. You do not indicate whether you studying crime in general, specific types of criminal behaviour, the role of the criminal justice system- retribution or rehabilitation ( and how much public opinion can influence policy) , what factors are more likely to lead to Criminal behaviour ( nature/ nurture), the demise of the role of the church, the breakdown of the family unit, the lack of positive male role models, the increased inequality in society, changes in the ethnic breakdown of the UK. ( eg does the ethnic and religious breakdown of the Prison Estate mirror wider society.), why are biological women treated more harshly than men? Why are some many prisoners diagnosed with mental health issues? ,

Question for you to consider- if you send a male to prison for violence against women/ blacks/ lesbians etc including combinations of above. Once released will they be rehabilitated?

Those are just a few of the factors that could be considered.

”Normalising trans representation.” Since trans is a social construct rather than a biological fact. which elements of the trans community should be normalised? Do you have any exceptions. How about my former client that identified as gay, but liked dressing as a woman and was convicted of raping two brothers under 10. Your comments suggest that that is acceptable :

sexual orientation- gay
trans identity- woman
sexual attraction- MAP

So all good 👍 then

The number of young people with mental health issues is dramatically on the rise, the number of young people who are assessed as neuro diverse, autistic

etc. is also rising. So it is disingenuous to state:

“Do you think it's strange how there are high rates of LGBTQIA+ people seeking out wellbeing services? Statistically, they face much higher risks of abuse of all types due to hate crime which I'm sure you know leads to many difficulties. I'd say that many trans people especially face intense backlash so it makes sense why so many struggle psychologically as this world wasn't made with them in mind.”

A large number of young people are struggling to find their place in world that they face.Trans people are NOT statistically at a higher risk of hate crimes or abuse.

If you want to be taken seriously then do your research and be precise in factually accurate in your statements, don’t make illogical assumptions/ conclusions.

I have tried to be fair

BeHappyHedgehog · 18/06/2024 00:16

nutmeg7 · 29/04/2024 15:52

Just been reading through - Hedgehog, it seems that you have a simplistic idea that any adolescent girl in psychological pain because of approaching sexual maturity just has body dysmorphia (have we heard of this??😂) and this can be easily treated. You have no idea of the depths and complexity of psychological problems that can arise, and no understanding of teenage girls or what it is to be one. This is simplistic nonsense, surface level understanding. There are a lot of parents on here who have cared for a disturbed adolescent through depression, anorexia, self harm and other painful and long lasting difficulties. And it is not simple or easy to come through.

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Hi, I'm just catching up on the thread— I haven't logged in since my last response & I don't want to add a shit tonne of replies again so I'm just going to reply to this one; it mentions the points made before about me not being born female so just wanted to clarify really quick. I was born female so I know what it's like to be a teenage girl & struggle with the issues you mentioned. I agree that these aren't easy or simple to go through but I don't think my understanding of them is surface level. When I talked about dysmorphia, I was just suggesting that it could get confused with dysphoria for some people & by no means I was saying that it's the case for everyone undergoing female puberty. The conversation I was having with another user was to do with teenage girls who wrongly believe they're trans.

I'm going to finish catching up on the thread but I don't think any more replies from me will be productive. Peace out✌Hope everyone is well