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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Wes Streeting (Labour Shadow Health Secretary) pledges "support for the Cass Review’s evidence-led recommendations and our determination to put children’s health and wellbeing above the political fray"

122 replies

LogicLoverLlama · 10/04/2024 09:17

twitter - https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1777835770184634751

Is this what we need to vote Labour? I was genuinely going to rip up my "never kissed a tory" badge

Wes Streeting (Labour Shadow Health Secretary) pledges "support for the Cass Review’s evidence-led recommendations and our determination to put children’s health and wellbeing above the political fray"
OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Crankywiddershins · 12/04/2024 06:52

Anyone else think that "Lloyd-Moyle" sounds like an over the counter piles remedy?

RedToothBrush · 12/04/2024 07:33

Helen Staniland AT helenstaniland
I refuse to accept that advocating for women's boundaries, or concerns over the medicalisation of children have contributed to a 'toxic debate' in any way other than 'if you hadn't said no then I wouldn't have had to raise my voice, or my hand'.

I won't accept it. #NonToxic

J.K.Rowling AT Jk_rowling
Exactly this. I won't be lectured on the 'toxicity' of the debate by men who believe exactly what I believe, but have been too cowardly to speak out. The truth is, they didn't fancy taking the hits I've taken, and don't want to admit it. 1/2

Now the tide's turning, you want to ride up on your white horse and show us all how to have respectful, mature discussion? You were missing in action when it might have made a difference. Don't you dare lecture us how we should've fought the battle you avoided. 2/2

I am kinda reflecting on Wes Streeting's road to Damascus and the timing of it.

I'm minded to think it's a "Lo Behold A Man Has Arrived" moment to tell us all how we have challenged and whistleblown wrongly.

He rocks up at the moment it's safe to do so and it won't damage his career. Indeed he probably gets the allocades to be seen as breaking ranks and saying 'oh we need to have a grown up debate now'. This could have been done way back when he was busy trying to get women thrown out of Labour if course.

I'm also minded to say that it's rich from the Conservatives to say that Labour is wholly responsible for the culture war on this when it has so many of its MPs who just weeks ago were speaking in the debate on the (now binned) conversion therapy bill.

We are in the run in to an election. Opposition to gender identity religion was one of the few things the Tories had in their arsenal to throw at Labour. There was much to say that actually it was an issue that was starting to gain more traction that Labour would like to admit to. It was starting to make them look stupid.

They now get to negate that and say they are ready for sensible conversations. No wonder we have Tory ministers coming out and saying that Labour made it toxic. But let's not forget many many Tory MPs wouldn't engage on the subject either and this happened under their watch.

Meanwhile the LDs have said jack shit - their Trans members and councillors are doing a fair amount of bleating about how Cass is wrong though. The defending silence from the LDs is something else.

Whilst people are saying Glinner was right, spare a moment for Natalie Bird too.

TheCoffeeNebula · 12/04/2024 07:38

I'm hoping this might be one of those moments when mass preference falsification collapses, with a domino effect extending out to different areas. I don't think it will be that easy, but I can hope.

RedToothBrush · 12/04/2024 07:51

TheCoffeeNebula · 12/04/2024 07:38

I'm hoping this might be one of those moments when mass preference falsification collapses, with a domino effect extending out to different areas. I don't think it will be that easy, but I can hope.

I think it will make a few MPs think.

This is a major political scandal as well as a health one.

LoobiJee · 12/04/2024 08:36

RedToothBrush · 12/04/2024 07:33

Helen Staniland AT helenstaniland
I refuse to accept that advocating for women's boundaries, or concerns over the medicalisation of children have contributed to a 'toxic debate' in any way other than 'if you hadn't said no then I wouldn't have had to raise my voice, or my hand'.

I won't accept it. #NonToxic

J.K.Rowling AT Jk_rowling
Exactly this. I won't be lectured on the 'toxicity' of the debate by men who believe exactly what I believe, but have been too cowardly to speak out. The truth is, they didn't fancy taking the hits I've taken, and don't want to admit it. 1/2

Now the tide's turning, you want to ride up on your white horse and show us all how to have respectful, mature discussion? You were missing in action when it might have made a difference. Don't you dare lecture us how we should've fought the battle you avoided. 2/2

I am kinda reflecting on Wes Streeting's road to Damascus and the timing of it.

I'm minded to think it's a "Lo Behold A Man Has Arrived" moment to tell us all how we have challenged and whistleblown wrongly.

He rocks up at the moment it's safe to do so and it won't damage his career. Indeed he probably gets the allocades to be seen as breaking ranks and saying 'oh we need to have a grown up debate now'. This could have been done way back when he was busy trying to get women thrown out of Labour if course.

I'm also minded to say that it's rich from the Conservatives to say that Labour is wholly responsible for the culture war on this when it has so many of its MPs who just weeks ago were speaking in the debate on the (now binned) conversion therapy bill.

We are in the run in to an election. Opposition to gender identity religion was one of the few things the Tories had in their arsenal to throw at Labour. There was much to say that actually it was an issue that was starting to gain more traction that Labour would like to admit to. It was starting to make them look stupid.

They now get to negate that and say they are ready for sensible conversations. No wonder we have Tory ministers coming out and saying that Labour made it toxic. But let's not forget many many Tory MPs wouldn't engage on the subject either and this happened under their watch.

Meanwhile the LDs have said jack shit - their Trans members and councillors are doing a fair amount of bleating about how Cass is wrong though. The defending silence from the LDs is something else.

Whilst people are saying Glinner was right, spare a moment for Natalie Bird too.

He rocks up at the moment it's safe to do so and it won't damage his career. Indeed he probably gets the accolades to be seen as breaking ranks and saying 'oh we need to have a grown up debate now'. This could have been done way back when he was busy trying to get women thrown out of Labour of course.

This.

fromorbit · 12/04/2024 09:52

To be fair Wesley started reverse ferreting years back long before most senior member of Labour. He has got attacked for saying some gender crit stuff over the last few years.

He apologised to Rosie publicly. Remember most MPs have NOT done this:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/28/wes-streeting-apologises-to-labour-mp-rosie-duffield-who-felt-ostracised-due-to-gender-views

This DOESN'T mean he is the best thing ever. However he is doing WAY better than most Labour MPs.

Lets say we have a Public Terf scale of 1-10.

Rosie is a 10 in public life saying Gender crit stuff and risking her career over it along with Tonia, members of Women's Labour Declaration.

8-9 Jess Phillips currently she was more like 4 or 5 a few years ago.

0 - "Gender war what gender war. I don't know nothing."

Minus figures for being an active TRA.

I guess Streeting is Terfing at about a 5 or 6 from being -7/ -8 TRA. Saying Transwoman are not women in public has to be worth that.

Most Labour MPs are between -3 to 3

-10 Nadia Whitcombe

Wes Streeting apologises to Labour MP who felt ostracised due to gender views

MP said she felt ostracised and accused male colleagues of shouting her down for opposing transgender reforms

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/28/wes-streeting-apologises-to-labour-mp-rosie-duffield-who-felt-ostracised-due-to-gender-views

StainlessSteelMouse · 12/04/2024 10:26

OvaHere · 11/04/2024 09:01

I read somewhere the other day that polling is showing the biggest demographic likely turning to Labour in the next election are the slightly right of centre voters.

I imagine most of these voters (knowing nothing about past witch hunting facebook groups) will find Wes Streeting to be a very sensible chap on this.

He is at least smart enough to know the direction the wind is blowing and how to pitch himself, I will give him that.

I never thought of Wes Streeting as Captain Renault from Casablanca, but it kind of works.

RhannionKPSS · 12/04/2024 10:36

Jess Philips is a self serving coward.

AIstolemylunch · 12/04/2024 10:39

Too little to late for me.

Fair play to Wes Streeting, i suppose, for actually admiting he was wrong, rather that just reverse ferreting and pretending that that was their position all along (we see you Stonewall and The Times) but, nah, I'll never forget or forgive the 'men can have a cervix' brigade.

anyolddinosaur · 12/04/2024 10:54

It is time to forgive - not to forget. We've had the day of saying where were you, time to remember allies are needed, especially in fighting the ideology in schools.

Not surprised that some political parties still cant recognise the problem. I forgot to ask about the SNP, any reverse ferreting there?

duc748 · 12/04/2024 11:22

Now the tide's turning, you want to ride up on your white horse and show us all how to have respectful, mature discussion? You were missing in action when it might have made a difference. Don't you dare lecture us how we should've fought the battle you avoided.

This is so true, and applies just as much to the James O'Briens of this world as the Wes Streetings.

Citrusandginger · 12/04/2024 12:08

Wes Streeting might really really really want to become Health Secretary, but there are other candidates.

Livinghappy · 12/04/2024 12:22

The defending silence from the LDs is something else

Let's keep remembering this. Daisy Cooper is also a full on TRA. I actually fear them more than the Labour party as their pro trans policies were aimed at wooing the student/youth vote after the student fees climb down.

Slothtoes · 12/04/2024 15:48

I think you're dreaming if you think the NHS suddenly got off its arse on this. They didn't. Of course there were behind the scenes discussions to make them do it. Of course none of that will make the light of day but don't labour under the misapprehension that the bosses suddenly saw the light.

ResisterRex I think you’re trying to give political credit to the Tories where it isn’t due. You said upthread that Matt Hancock had commissioned Cass. Not true.
The commitment to do the review in 2020 (that is now called the Cass report) was made in 2016 by NHS England as follow up to a new service spec. Once the review was underway in 2020, it had become incredibly topical thanks to the persistence of women and families and detransitioned people and particularly the legal case brought by Keira Bell. It was very useful to the government to have this independent inquiry going on. I’m sure by the time it was already happening they were very supportive of it. That’s as far as I’ll give credit though.

Jeremy Hunt was the health sec back in 2016 and I’d imagine he was a bit too busy back then to be trying to influence NHS England to review the treatment of kids with gender distress. Hunt was trying to manage huge NHS workforce issues- the first ever Junior doctors strike to hit A&Es, and the Brexit referendum.

Was Hunt really leaning on NHS England in 2016 to make a commitment that in 4 years’ time they would investigate children’s gender identity services? That’s not really a time scale in which ministers who are really concerned about something tend to operate?

As I see it, NHS England were just following their own administrative rules in 2016 by committing to run the 2020 review- which was a long while after this issue had become incredibly urgent anyway. I have no idea if NHS England Board are Terfy, or not, who knows, but I can say The Tory government and its ministers were spectacularly uninterested in this issue back then, as these boards will show.

Jeremy Hunt’s boss in 2016, PM Theresa May, announced in 2017 the Tory government’s intention to bring in self ID to the UK via their reform of the GRA which was aimed at making the process of getting a GRC easier. And the government did bring about the £5 GRA, but thank goodness rowed back on self ID after consulting on introducing it in 2018. At which point they were criticised in the media and lobbied by women and families and saw how unpopular it was.

Cass’s report has become really convenient for the Tories and that’s excellent, because it needs prominence and support. What matters is that more children’s needs are more appropriately met by the NHS.

But in reality women and families and detransitioned people were ignored for years by Health secretaries, MPs and the NHS when they expressed concerns about how vulnerable children were being given politicised and non-evidence based treatment by NHS GIDs.

Even when several NHS whistleblowers had come out saying the same thing in mainstream media. There hasn’t been an effective government response to this issue; the real strides that will protect kids so far were made by women crowd-funding legal cases. so I still think to stop this kind of failure happening again we will need a public inquiry.

ResisterRex · 12/04/2024 16:53

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. There's no way I think NHS officials who are not known or accountable, suddenly decided to look into this I'm afraid. It was the pressure from Bell's JR and the building noise that forced it IMO. I'm sure there will have been discussions behind the scenes to make it happen. Organisations do not decide to expose their darkest secrets. Following up a new service can mean anything. And let's not forget Mordaunt actually tried to credit herself with the Cass Review!! (Um NO).

Probably in 20 years we will see papers released, like some now are from the Blair days.

EasternStandard · 12/04/2024 20:29

ResisterRex · 12/04/2024 16:53

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. There's no way I think NHS officials who are not known or accountable, suddenly decided to look into this I'm afraid. It was the pressure from Bell's JR and the building noise that forced it IMO. I'm sure there will have been discussions behind the scenes to make it happen. Organisations do not decide to expose their darkest secrets. Following up a new service can mean anything. And let's not forget Mordaunt actually tried to credit herself with the Cass Review!! (Um NO).

Probably in 20 years we will see papers released, like some now are from the Blair days.

Looking around there’s a mention of why Dr Cass was appointed

’Dr Cass was asked to conduct the review in 2020 after a whistleblower raised concerns about the only specialist gender clinic for young people in England and Wales, Gender Identity and Development Service (Gids), coinciding with a surge in patients being referred to the NHS for questioning their gender.’

On gov actions it did involve new legislation

Mr Javid introduced legislation in 2022 which allowed the Cass review access to some medical records.

"Despite it being the unanimous will of Parliament, it is clear vested interests have deliberately frustrated the important data access legislation I brought forward to support Dr Cass's review," he said.

Citrusandginger · 12/04/2024 21:19

Fairly sure Jeremy Hunt was talking the talk on safety in healthcare about 10 years ago. Shame he didn't implement it.

ResisterRex · 12/04/2024 21:51

They've all been talking the talk. Whatever happened to a duty of candour?? Presumably something the adult clinics should have been actually doing?

EasternStandard · 12/04/2024 22:09

A review is only as good as the information you can access so new 2022 legislation did help there

I think there’s still a push to get adult services to help track long term

Slothtoes · 13/04/2024 10:03

ResisterRex thanks. I’m not clear what your point of disagreement with me is because I evidenced everything with timelines to show that Matt Hancock didn’t commission Cass, as you’d claimed, but happy to move on.

Slothtoes · 13/04/2024 10:48

More on Health Sec Sajid Javid legally intervening to tell adult clinics to release data to researchers here. As I said upthread, credit to him for taking that action:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5046919-refusal-of-adult-gender-clinics-to-take-part-in-study-shocking-david-bell?reply=134426036

The Telegraph also carries an opinion piece by current Health Secretary Victoria Atkins who has very importantly accepted Cass’ recommendations. She is committing to taking action in various ways to effect them. Including on this crucial point of adult gender clinics not releasing data for research.

Atkins says she is ‘working closely’ (ie putting pressure on) the NHS to sort that out. Credit to her. She is listening to Cass, thank goodness. The Health Secretary’s active support will be absolutely vital to getting this scandal turned around for future children and young people. I hope Atkins is able to make as much progress as possible with this in the few months before the general election and that subsequent governments don’t lose sight of it.

The Telegraph gives detail on this non-release of NHS data. It sounds like Javid’s reported ‘legal changes’ weren’t legally mandatory about the adult clinics having to actually hand any data over; but simply legally allowed the NHS to hand over the data to the Cass review/York researchers. That makes sense, if it’s NHS England that needs to write to the trusts to mandate that the data must be released. But why are they only doing that now?:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/10/nhs-bosses-ordered-reveal-fate-of-young-trans-patients/

Javid was in office June 2021-July 2022 and we’ve had four changes of health secretary in less than 2 years since- Javid to Barclay, then Coffey, then back to Barclay and now Atkins.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_of_State_for_Health_and_Social_Care
That shocking turnover in Ministers and PMs clearly hasn’t helped and just shows how unstable government bogs down the effective working of central government when we need it to be active.

The Guardian quotes Cass as saying:
‘Cited reasons for the six trusts’ refusal to cooperate included ethical considerations, although Cass said Health Research Authority approvals had been granted, and resource impacts, although Cass wrote the clinics were “contractually required to take part in research and appropriate costs would have been met by NHS England”. …
‘There was no substantive reason for it. So I can only really conclude that it was because they didn’t feel that it was the right thing to do to try and nail down this data,” she told the Guardian. “They were putting up reasons that didn’t that just didn’t hold water.

“Clearly, the trans community is fearful, rightly so, about their rights and about their healthcare. They’ve had a very bad deal in healthcare. I can understand that both they and the people delivering the service will be fearful about anything that might question that. But I think we have to separate the rights of older adults, whom we have more data on and who are at a stable point in their life for making decisions, from younger people who are still in a developmental trajectory.”

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/10/adult-transgender-clinics-in-england-face-inquiry-into-patient-care

The Telegraph article also says:
‘Research led by the University of York had been due to look at the long-term outcomes of children treated by the Tavistock.
It was expected to provide insights into the clinic’s work, including the number of patients treated with puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones, how many people detransitioned and how many had a “co-occurring mental health diagnosis” or a “diagnosis of autistic spectrum disorder”. The review had been given the power to access medical records.

Ms Atkins says: “It is disgraceful that adult gender clinics have not co-operated with the vital University of York research to link data on children at the Tavistock so that we can understand their journey into adulthood.
“This Government took the unprecedented step of changing the law to make this possible. There can be no further delay on their full participation. I know that NHS England will use all the powers at their disposal to compel this if they have to. Nothing less than full cooperation by those clinics in the research is acceptable.”
Sajid Javid, the former health secretary who gave the independent review powers to access medical records in 2022, called for “a no holds barred government investigation” to hold those responsible to account for obstruction.’’

I totally agree with Javid about need for further investigation and appreciate him speaking up. It really looks like we need a public inquiry, because there are issues that are outside Cass’ remit that need to be unpicked to stop this happening again.

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