Struggling to answer DS’s questions on why some men are so awful

[Catabogus]

DS is 11 and is quite a sensitive lad. For quite a while he has been asking me why so many men are so awful. I don’t know what to say!

This started with public lavatories - after using the ladies’ with me up to age 8, he switched to the men’s and noticed that it was often badly vandalised, much filthier than the women’s and sometimes full of disgusting graffiti. He absolutely hated it and kept asking why men would do that to their loo.

He is very interested in the news and often asks about conflict (Ukraine, Israel) or violence (communal, individual or domestic - or against animals). He notices that it is almost always perpetrated by boys/men, seems upset and has asked me why.

Most recently we have had a short chat about pornography (I felt I needed to cover this before he’s exposed to anything on a friend’s phone at secondary school). I mentioned that the sex in porn is unrealistic and sometimes frightening or violent towards women. He was SO HORRIFIED that I felt I’d done something wrong in even broaching the topic. For days afterwards he kept asking me “but why, Mum?? WHY do men want to watch that?” and appeared close to tears. I found this question really hard to answer.

I think I urgently need to do something to improve his image of men. He has even said “I don’t like being a man” a couple of times. His father is great - very respectful, hands-on and does more housework and childcare than I do - and I’ve stressed that lots of men are good ones like his dad. I’ve pointed out good examples of decent, positive men in the public eye. I’ve also tried to explain that it’s not (just) nature but the way they’re brought up and treated by society that influences men to behave as they do - so by bringing up the next generation well we can influence how they turn out. I’ve told him he is caring and decent and isn’t going to be a violent, abusive man.

But I think I need to do something more. I’m struggling to provide proper, age-appropriate answers to his questions, and I could really do with some more ideas on how to promote a positive, healthy self-image for him. (DH will help, I’m sure, and is a great role model, but isn’t the best at heart-to-heart conversations on these issues).

Thank you all very much for any ideas!

Have you come across Men at Work? It's a cic that works in schools but may be able to offer other advice.

You could approach your son's school too and suggest they look at something like men at work coming in.

Michael Conroy has been on WH a couple of times

What are his interests, apart from current affairs? Does he have any hobbies?

I think I would be inclined to encourage him towards mixed sex activities where boys and girls are engaging in healthy pursuits in a respectful environment, such as a choir or orchestra if he is musical. Something where both sexes are participating as equals and where the activity itself is sufficiently all consuming to not really leave much scope for bullying or gathering round some little oik's smartphone watching inappropriate material online.

Does he read much? Encourage him to read books by good compassionate men - doesn't have to be anything heavy, Terry Pratchett was brilliant at being humane and profound while also funny and lighthearted. That lets him get inside the heads of men who he can be proud of.

What does his father say (to you) about this? I think it's really his father who needs to have a chat with him. You can't do it for him and he very much needs to try his best. He is your DS's role model. His son becoming a man is not an area of life where he can play second fiddle to you.

I think also the simple highlight that it is the behaviour that is bad and not the person goes a long way with youngsters. Remembering back and from observation preteens and teens and young adolescents worry a lot about what they "are". So emphasising that people are not their behaviour, that everyone messes up, that forgiveness for wrongdoing is important, and that badly behaved young men often grow into very decent men is important. Testosterone may well be as scary and hard to handle for men and boys as it can be for women and girls. Also it is important to highlight why societies need masculinity.

Thanks a lot - these are really helpful replies!

Warrior I don’t know of Men At Work but will look it up. Thanks!

Kitty I feel very nervous of using any essentialist explanation like “men have testosterone so they…” - seems to me there’s a lot of scope for this to be heard as though it’s inevitable men behave badly. So I’ve been stressing the socialisation angle. You’re right though, I could talk about how men’s aggression can be harnessed for good things. I will think it over.

MissScarlet he has a ton of interests, but they’re mostly boys only (eg single-sex sport) or solitary (eg reading). There doesn’t seem to be much boy/girl mixing in his class - not sure if this is just the norm at his age. He does have a few activities that are mixed sex but even there they seem to divide up boys/girls.

I should add that I don’t think he’s actually witnessed any boy-on-girl bullying in person at all, which is perhaps why it has come as such a shock to him to learn what men can get up to in the adult world.

Mermoose he reads all the time but seems to enjoy traditional adventure novels most. I will encourage some Terry Pratchett, that’s a good idea.

Amaryllis his father thinks it will all be fine, ie isn’t really an issue. He is much more laid back than I am. I may be overthinking things - it’s possible! But I do worry as I think this is a difficult and formative age for boys.

ReasonablePerson - thanks, that’s interesting. Can I ask what you have in mind by “why societies need masculinity”? I think a bit more of that approach might be very helpful but am not sure how to start.

Teaching children to analyse and be critical of media is a a helpful part of the picture. Whether we like it or not we are influenced by what we are exposed to. You can talk with him about how boys and men are portrayed in films, music, advertising and pop culture vs how girls and women are portrayed.

Also have you watched Jackson Katz's TED talk, or other TED talks on "The Man Box"? I think they'd be helpful.

Can I ask what you have in mind by “why societies need masculinity”?

One place you might find some good advice on this is from Lisa Marchiano. She's a Jungian - jungianism overall seems a bit flimflam to me but there are definitely some good ideas in it, it allows for the good in masculinity, and Marchiano seems to have a very good constructive approach. She's on Twitter as far as I know.

And perhaps how it can also make him protective and powerful in a good way? And can be really good to channel this into sports or something active.
The pornography one is difficult too because you want to make it clear that he’s not a bad person when he starts getting sexual attraction he just needs to be aware of what he is consuming. Men can be wonderful and he will be one of them.

Weird question but would he be interested in climbing. IME it's full of vaguely hippyish lads who combine their strong male bodies with not being complete dicks

Men are more likely to be bad, and the feminist eye roll at #NotAllMen is pretty reasonable. If you are woman, you can't make assumptions about men based on them being "one of the good ones" because such a large proportion of men, still a minority, are bad.

However, when talking to a boy, it's important to say that there are good men, who respect boundaries, and they can be good allies of women. The feminist position isn't that men are inherently, biologically bad, but that they are made so by patriachal expectations and privilege, which can be fought against.

My advice to anyone raising a child, is "build the best twenty-five year old you can." Teach him his own boundaries, but also how to respect other people's boundaries. Teach him that good traits are important, not whether they are associated with culturally masculine or feminine behaviour. In tiny doses, teach him good behaviour and reward him for that behaviour. He does not have to be like those men. He can be a good man.

https://www.drfinnmackay.co.uk/blog/raising-boyschildren-the-feminist-way-or-some-ideas-for-raising-children-without-gender-constraints

My son is similarly questioning and earnest (although thank goodness is able to separate the fact that men as a class do these things from the fact that he is a male)

From as soon as he started spending more time on the internet, I've warned him that lots of people are jerks, and that the internet brings it out in people. He's noticed for himself that it's worse in boys, and we shrug and just say 'some people are jerks' and get on with our day.

When it comes to war and poor treatment of women we've had some quite long debates - about how selfish some people are, and how that seems to flourish in men vs. women who tend to take responsibility for other people more (this grew out careful and gentle chats when me and my ex split), how power attracts and tactics of invaders and bullies.

It's a fine line to walk - letting him remain innocent, but arming him against things he might see/hear, giving him the confidence to think about things and decide what is right for himself.

Does he attend scouts? I can only talk for my group, but our scouts has strong male leaders who are very positive, encouraging & won't tolerate unacceptable behaviour. Lots of community engagement, time away from devices & it's mixed sex too.

I've also heard of a group called Roar which works with young boys on confidence, values etc. but not sure if it's national?

Unfortunately, as a class (not my Nigel) men ARE responsible the majority of violence and physical abuse. As parents of boys, I'm not sure how we navigate that fact with any kind of positivity, except they can 'be the change' which feels hollow, so I'm following your thread with interest.

It sounds like he's worried he will become like this as he grows because he's a boy - and maybe you wont like him? It's hard for him to process. Some men will always behave badly (a bit like the villains in superhero movies) but others are kind and good and strong, and he will be one of those.
just trying to think what I'd say to reassure him!

I would also say, as someone else has, that his dad needs to have conversations about this with him (as well as you, not instead of you). What are his dad's thoughts on all these topics?

Remind him that while he can't change other people directly, he can set a good example by the choices he makes, which will in turn help others to be strong enough to be better.
OP he sounds lovely! I have all daughter's but if be proud to have a son with your DS's attitude.

I think it's important to emphasise that we are not at the mercy of our peers, our environment or our hormones completely. They may push in certain directions at different times, but we all have choices about how we're going to behave and what we're going to do, including him. The really important thing in life is to have some personal integrity, some pride in a standard to which you hold yourself, and it sounds like he has that. I would definitely encourage him to listen to what that voice is telling him and help him to have the courage to ignore anyone or anything that goes against his own personal code.

Poor wee lad, being a child can be really difficult! If he was a MNer, I'd send a
I think that both boys and girls can be taught the same principles of respect and kindness [the real kind!] and thoughtfulness and healthy scepticism, so they just grow up to be decent human beings, regardless of sex.

Maybe tell him that the reason some men are awful could be that they didn't have nice dads like Dad? OK so it's not even remotely scientifically provable, but it might give him something positive to hold on in a scary world?

Uh-oh, I've just realised my post suggests that boys who grow up without fathers become violent - not at all my intention, I was just thinking of something comforting and positive to say to this little boy.
Apologies to any single mothers, I really didn't mean what I seem to have written as I wrote it, if you get my drift.. Sorry all round!

@Catabogus I think I feel (as a 2nd wave feminist and mother of a teenaged son with a father who is very much one of the good guys) that the dominant social messaging now is very feminist led and not necessarily in a good way.

There is no dispute now that women can operate in society in almost every way that men can. This wasn't always true. However, the tropes of toxic masculinity haven't gone anywhere and I still hear in my circles all the time casual throwaway comments from women about the ineptness or the thoughtlessness of men. As I had previously been very aware of tropes about women and pushed back against them. I began to see that tables were turning and many men were not sure how to respond.

In truth, society obviously needs men who contribute and support families and women who do the same. Those women and men need to support each other. This is not to say that the nuclear family is the only option ( I don't think that). But I think a counter narrative to the "meh men" that is pretty dominant might simply be to say "that's sexist and untrue" in the way women had to.

Appreciation of maleness maybe starts with mum expressing an appreciation of maleness. Different but equal kind of thing. I don't think I'm expressing myself particularly well. Sorry!

If it helps I think the teens is a turbulent time, but the ability to converse that you seem to have with your son will help. It isn't easy for them and the 5 years to come he will be working all sorts of things out, whilst dealing with puberty etc. I don't think there's an easy answer, but THE answer is to keep being able to talk to him, even if the frequency drops in and out (it probably will).

I know you are posting because you are concerned worried OP, but actually I found it a really positive post.

That your DS is so able to see and articulate what he has seen, and that the two of you can talk!

Lots of suggestions up thread, but was thinking that also, and it may already be happening, is peer pressure. Something that continues through life.

Not saying that young girls and women dont get caught up with peer pressure and trying to fit in, and I am sure many of us are aware of how really mean girls can be, but it is less likely to be violent.

It sounds like he has the character to not give in to peer pressure, such as trying to outdo other boys by being disrepectful to women, or worse violent.

And he has already seen how there is evidence of violence against women, and too many boys and young men then seem to see that it is therefore "naturual" male behaviour. He may have to accept he will never be part of the in group, or rather the loud bragging group, but should be proud of himself for not giving into peer pressure.

This is only one aspect of what your OP was asking, but as we all know, it is all too possible for people to get caught up with wanting to fit in.

But seems to me the best thing for him is that he has and wants to talk to you.

Bless him, what a lovely boy you're raising. Rather than seeing it as something to change, perhaps boys like him are what will be the change we need.