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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

We need to talk about America

155 replies

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 08/04/2024 12:44

In the last few days I have posted about my experience of being kicked out of a mostly US based parenting group for not agreeing with the rest of the group's views about JK Rowling.

It was a short conversation, in which I politely attempted to explain the Scottish legislation that came into force last Monday in order to give some political context to her recent tweets. I received various responses along the lines of "the only context I need is that she is a bigot". One woman said that her sibling is trans and that she cannot engage in an intellectual discussion about trans issues when her sibling is a real person who is hurting. Another woman said that she has been raped, and she would be absolutely fine using rape crisis services in the company of trans women. I responded in a way I thought was kind and sensitive to both women, saying I was very sorry about what they/their sibling had been through, but felt that everyone's needs should be accommodated, including women who need single sex spaces, and that we need to be able to have a civilised discussion about this. I said I was muting the conversation overnight, partly due to the time difference and partly because there were 50 of them and only one of me, but that I hoped we would be able to agree to disagree and still be friends. By the morning I had been unceremoniously kicked out of the group.

All the people in the group are are women, ranging from in their late 20s to their early 40s. Most are US based, with a handful of Canadians, Kiwis and Aussies. I would describe them as "liberal feminists" purely to identify the demographic I am talking about, although I consider them to be neither liberal nor feminist.

I have come to the conclusion that, if this group is representative of American "progressives", America is lost on this issue.

I do not wish to repeat my earlier thread about this experience, but instead I would like to talk more broadly about American culture and trans issues.

Whilst I am becoming more optimistic about the UK (with many people now openly agreeing with JK Rowling, an increasing number of gender critical "wins" in the court system and the final Cass Report due out this week), I am dismayed by the position in America.

Can we - by which I mean the UK and other European countries which seem to be having similar epiphanies - change the global direction of travel on this issue without the support of the US, and to a lesser extent Canada, Australia and New Zealand?

If we cannot, can we envisage a future in which most of Europe has decided that women's rights matter and children should not be encouraged to transition, even if the rest of the developed world has taken a different approach? Or are we always going to be affected by whatever cultural norms are imposed on us by the US?

Finally, why is the UK "Terf Island"? What is it about us as a culture which has made British feminists so much more resistant to these ideas which have been so wholeheartedly embraced by American liberal feminists?

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

OP posts:
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GrinitchSpinach · 12/04/2024 23:29

Paywalled, but the Wall Street Journal had a news story and an editorial piece:

"U.K. Study Criticizes Puberty Blockers for Gender Dysphoria in Minors
Four-year study says there is no good evidence for giving transitioning drugs, adding to growing caution in U.S. and Europe"
https://www.wsj.com/world/uk/uk-study-criticizes-puberty-blockers-for-gender-dysphoria-in-minors-703c2ad7?mod=hp_listb_pos2

"Helpful Transgender Lessons From Europe
The Cass Review shows wisdom and humility on treatment of young people, in contrast to the ideological conformity in U.S. medical associations."
https://www.wsj.com/articles/hilary-cass-review-transgender-medicine-national-health-service-u-k-3d0b6e88

HumphreyCushionintheHouse · 13/04/2024 06:57

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 08/04/2024 18:38

I had friends and colleagues who told me they voted republican because they were fiscally conservative, even though they were socially liberal. In those days the Republican Party was still relatively sane and managed to hold both liberal and conservative social voters, because of the strong trend toward individual rights. Society has polarised so much over there since I came back to the UK, I’ve no idea where a socially liberal but economic conservative fits nowadays.

I’m too chicken to raise the issue of women’s right with the people I’m still in touch with. However, I will also say my experience is echoed in the OPs experience that many “ordinary” Americans are simply unaware that other countries have different cultures and traditions. It really isn’t obvious there as you can be very well traveled and yet have never left the US. I had conversations telling people, no the US dollar isn’t an accepted currency in the UK/Europe, yes we speak English in England (no, not French), no we don’t celebrate the Fourth of July, no we haven’t all met the Queen, yes we can’t drive until we are seventeen but we can drink hard liquor at eighteen, no it’s not like Downton Abbey any more etc. There is very little curiosity about other countries, they are taught from a young age that the American way is best so there is nothing to learn from other countries. With that level of general understanding, JKR’s twix posts will be read in the context of American politics, and not Scottish. Because Scottish politics to them is probably still Mel Gibson shouting freedom.

Edited

This America bashing and awful generalization is unhelpful and ignorant.

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 13/04/2024 09:27

It’s not American bashing, they are examples of conversations i had when I was living over there. Many ordinary Americans in ordinary towns away from the well known cities and tourist areas just don’t meet “outsiders” very often, especially not foreigners. As soon as I opened my mouth I attracted comment, so that something as simple as buying groceries could involve a big conversation. People are friendly there! Most of it was well intentioned and curious, but a lot was based on poor knowledge.

CheeseSandwichRiskAssessment · 13/04/2024 10:24

Sounds like they were curious if they were asking all those questions.

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 13/04/2024 12:57

Yes, but back to the OP’s point about online discussions, it’s different when you go to the store and encounter someone in person, someone who has obviously different characteristics, because you are acknowledging the reality in the conversation. Plus, I was in their territory so to speak, so it’s natural for them to wonder how someone from England ended up there.

As compared to online discussions when the default is to assume everyone you talk to is like you. The latter is a well characterised phenomenon. And as America is a populous country, there are a lot of Americans on Facebook, many of them assuming the American experience is the norm.

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