We need to talk about America

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

In the last few days I have posted about my experience of being kicked out of a mostly US based parenting group for not agreeing with the rest of the group's views about JK Rowling.

It was a short conversation, in which I politely attempted to explain the Scottish legislation that came into force last Monday in order to give some political context to her recent tweets. I received various responses along the lines of "the only context I need is that she is a bigot". One woman said that her sibling is trans and that she cannot engage in an intellectual discussion about trans issues when her sibling is a real person who is hurting. Another woman said that she has been raped, and she would be absolutely fine using rape crisis services in the company of trans women. I responded in a way I thought was kind and sensitive to both women, saying I was very sorry about what they/their sibling had been through, but felt that everyone's needs should be accommodated, including women who need single sex spaces, and that we need to be able to have a civilised discussion about this. I said I was muting the conversation overnight, partly due to the time difference and partly because there were 50 of them and only one of me, but that I hoped we would be able to agree to disagree and still be friends. By the morning I had been unceremoniously kicked out of the group.

All the people in the group are are women, ranging from in their late 20s to their early 40s. Most are US based, with a handful of Canadians, Kiwis and Aussies. I would describe them as "liberal feminists" purely to identify the demographic I am talking about, although I consider them to be neither liberal nor feminist.

I have come to the conclusion that, if this group is representative of American "progressives", America is lost on this issue.

I do not wish to repeat my earlier thread about this experience, but instead I would like to talk more broadly about American culture and trans issues.

Whilst I am becoming more optimistic about the UK (with many people now openly agreeing with JK Rowling, an increasing number of gender critical "wins" in the court system and the final Cass Report due out this week), I am dismayed by the position in America.

Can we - by which I mean the UK and other European countries which seem to be having similar epiphanies - change the global direction of travel on this issue without the support of the US, and to a lesser extent Canada, Australia and New Zealand?

If we cannot, can we envisage a future in which most of Europe has decided that women's rights matter and children should not be encouraged to transition, even if the rest of the developed world has taken a different approach? Or are we always going to be affected by whatever cultural norms are imposed on us by the US?

Finally, why is the UK "Terf Island"? What is it about us as a culture which has made British feminists so much more resistant to these ideas which have been so wholeheartedly embraced by American liberal feminists?

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

I'm less optimistic about US policy being influenced by Europe, but I do think that a few high value lawsuits by detransitioners could well be what ultimately causes the tide to turn in the US.

That's encouraging if true, but how the hell did I find myself in such a bubble?

I saw that. I also saw someone claim that JKR behaved as she does because she "hates men". Pick the bones out of that one.

Thank you for this! She sounds like a formidable woman.

The US is slightly baffling sometimes. I was reading this thread earlier and how these very zealous safety labels are because everything is fair game for harm litigation.

Yet California has also set themselves up as a 'sanctuary' city to pump drugs and hormones into any minor that requests it no questions asked.

Make it make sense!

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5045822-whats-with-the-californian-safety-warning-on-tkmaxx-products

This is very interesting - I didn't know about the heritability and while I think there are other factors involved, including entrenched political polarity, it makes a lot of sense.

The other huge factor is the extent to which liberalism has always been the beard for the shoring up and repair of capitalism. Trans activism is the epitome of that, in that it appears to be progressive but is in fact a movement of hyper-individualism whose central narrative denies a structural view of inequality. My inner journey trumps your class oppression, every time. This is true in the UK of course, but America has a particularly weighted relationship with both individualism and capitalism, both of which they constitutionally lionise.

Finally, I don't think you can underestimate liberals' pathological fear of being uncool. They would rather defend piss-soaked-diaper-wearing bestiality-adjacent fetishists than not be a cool mom.

I’ve lived in the USA, on the east coast. Individually, many of the people I knew were the friendliest, warmest and generous people you’d wish to meet. As a society, I was baffled because it didn’t reflect the nature of the individuals I met.

i came to the conclusion described by a previous poster. The USA still operates on a basis that individual rights are above all, and collective rights come a way behind. Whereas those of us with European perspective have been brought up with it the other way around. There is a disconnect in the USA between the citizens and their government(s), whether state or federal.

As an example, I was there in 2012 when the Sandy Hook shooting happened. The day it happened my colleagues were in shock - by the third day they were shrugging their shoulders with a meh, what can you do. I said in the UK, we’d have been contacting our MPs, marching on Parliament, signing petitions, holding protests etc to get the gun laws changed. And pointed out that after Dunblane and Hungerford there was such a groundswell of public opinion that that was unnecessary and legislation was enacted without much opposition. Whereas in the USA my colleagues said was put in the “too difficult” bucket. Country too big geographically and population, too heterogeneous culture wise, and because it was impossible to come up with a single magic wave of the wand to fix the problem with one piece of legislation, that meant it was impossible to fix full stop. So they wrung their hands and wept and then repeat for the next time.

I read a comment online that said the USA used to be a vigorous and ambitious country where the impossible was possible, but the country collectively put its feet on its desk after 20th July 1969 and it’s been on its coffee break ever since. It resonated.

The USS is very diverse, in much of of the USA though they are socially conservative it's just the group you belonged to wasn't. People like to surround themselves with people who agree with them.

Americans

20% think the Holocaust didn't happen.

48% voted for trump.

A large number think the solution to gun crime is to give people more guns.

And worst if all...

The USA has double the infant mortality of Europe.

Thank goodness for the mumsnet members. Prepared to speak the truth, even at the risk of being banned.
It’s all down to the members.
❤️

I had friends and colleagues who told me they voted republican because they were fiscally conservative, even though they were socially liberal. In those days the Republican Party was still relatively sane and managed to hold both liberal and conservative social voters, because of the strong trend toward individual rights. Society has polarised so much over there since I came back to the UK, I’ve no idea where a socially liberal but economic conservative fits nowadays.

I’m too chicken to raise the issue of women’s right with the people I’m still in touch with. However, I will also say my experience is echoed in the OPs experience that many “ordinary” Americans are simply unaware that other countries have different cultures and traditions. It really isn’t obvious there as you can be very well traveled and yet have never left the US. I had conversations telling people, no the US dollar isn’t an accepted currency in the UK/Europe, yes we speak English in England (no, not French), no we don’t celebrate the Fourth of July, no we haven’t all met the Queen, yes we can’t drive until we are seventeen but we can drink hard liquor at eighteen, no it’s not like Downton Abbey any more etc. There is very little curiosity about other countries, they are taught from a young age that the American way is best so there is nothing to learn from other countries. With that level of general understanding, JKR’s twix posts will be read in the context of American politics, and not Scottish. Because Scottish politics to them is probably still Mel Gibson shouting freedom.

Justine was SWATted.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/aug/19/armed-police-mumsnet-justine-roberts-swatting-attack-hoax-call

Frustrating as I find some of MN's decisions wrt FWR, they've kept some version of FWR going when other platforms closed GC women down.

Justine is a substantial contributor to the reason why "MN is the answer," why MNetters been able to get news out and organise, fundraise for valuable cases.

The US is a collection of mini-countries under the umbrella of federal jurisdiction that most Americans prefer to be as light touch as possible. Fragmentation is absolutely the norm, most Americans identify with their state first, entire country second.

Individualism is heralded, prioritised, lionised.

Identity politics thrives in this culture. One could argue that identity politics is the purest form of Americanism. I'm American and have lived in the UK a long time. Things may not be perfect here, but UK culture sees collectivism in a way that many Americans literally abhor.

There’s nothing progressive about America.

Apart from Martina Navratilova, what prominent role models do American left wing women even have?

Just in our journalistic class writing for national newspapers we have Julie Bindel, Janice Turner, Sarah Ditum, Suzanne Moore, Sonia Sodha, Susanna Rustin, Helen Lewis, the late Deborah Orr, Susan Dalgety, Mandy Rhodes. I grew up enjoying the columns of most of these women and know they are not raging fascists, nazis or bigots. If anything it's the genderist journos like Zoe Williams who stick out like a sore thumb in the UK.

I think with the US there are lots of obvious socio-cultural reasons like political polarisation and no social security/NHS so if you get fired (at will in some states) for wrongthink you and your family might end up destitute and without access to medical care. Also I'd be scared to attend protests and lectures or feminist events if there was a possibility that TRAs could turn up with guns given the behaviour we see in gunless countries like the UK.

What I can't understand is the Aussies. I thought they were very concerned with sport and fairness and that they normally seem like more piss-taking people like the Brits and less earnest than North Americans. That the Australian press is refusing to even cover Sall Grover's Tickle v Giggle case seems incredible.

After disagreeing about JKR being a horrible person with some TWAW DC, I went and read her original 3000 word essay, was shocked to hear that the majority of TW remained biologically intact males, went looking for more info, found FWR after being on MN for the parenting and had my eyes and thinking opened.

Another thing that I think is relevant is that I think the UK, or maybe more specifically England, isn't deep down a "progressive" society at all. It is a conservative society, and I mean old style traditional conservatism that sees the institutions that hold together the social and political fabric as very important, and is careful about making changes, doesn't tend to look to change wholesale systems just to try and reach some perfect ideal, and also tends to operate at a low level - the mass collectivism of communism isn't really that nature, but there is a strong tendency to grass roots communitarianism.

All of these things tend to protect against social fads, both in terms of how institutions operate, but also because these attitudes shape people's temperaments.

Interesting points made. The US position is really important.

With the US presidential Election in November with Congress/Governors also being elected it seems likely Sex/gender issues are going to play a big part with the Dems pushing Abortion and the Repubs fighting for women's sports and against gender theory etc.

This is going to mean a huge wave of internet politics as we know when US goes to the polls the world watches. If Trump wins which right now looks worryingly likely I bet some people will blame Terf Island for it. It will be the British women's fault rather than realising it is daft to allow the Republicans to be the party that backs women existing, having sports and changing rooms.

The other big element in the US will be legal cases given the medical gender industry has been running wild. Given the US love of litigation when the detrans cases start being heard in the next few years it will be a game changer.

The OP mentioned Canada interesting to note that Tranada is in trouble the Tories have been ahead in the polls since 2022, their lead is getting ever bigger, and they have promised to roll back some gender stuff if they win in the 2025 election.

Wow. Pretty obvious you've never lived in the US. You've got a point on socialism and the unbelievably stupid rhetoric around it. But trade unions?! Never come across, say, the UAW, United Auto Workers with its near-mythical status and deep resources - so much so even grad students often end up affiliating with it? Not a Brit myself, but from what I see on this website I'd also assume that American teacher's unions have a hell of a lot more influence than their British counterparts. Where you might have a point is that quite possibly, there is less movement across from this to feminist organising.

“There is a lot more froth online than there is action in real life.”

This isn’t reassuring at all. At a political level, undoubtedly the lobbying is still fierce and intense. This is exactly the “under the radar” situation which allowed the UK to come so close to self-ID and other European countries to adopt it.

Haven't read the full thread, but dropping in quickly to say this has been my experience as well. I'm in several FB groups with mainly American, female membership, and whenever there is a JK Rowling discussion it's just a huge pile on. I've tried gently challenging the group view, and have asked for specific examples of when JKR has expressed views that are actually transphobic. I've never been given examples, have just been told that she's a TERF and so am I if I am anything other than 100% critical of her views. You just can't reason with them.

This has been a most interesting, intelligent and informative discussion. Nothing to add, just bigging you all up!

I also think the sexism within the union movement was impossible to ignor. So women's rights activists in the UK have always known that sexist ideologies can come from both left and right.
Whereas, in the USA, feminists in the 80s and 90s started thinking of the patriarchy as something those dreadful Republicans were doing over there. It's impossible to concieve of a political movement that has emerged from the left as being deeply mysogynistic.

The resistance is starting to gain traction in Australia. The average Australian isn't even aware this has happened due to am almost complete media blackout.

But that is starting to crack. There was a positive piece on JKR in the Sydney Morning Herald this week, along with an article on the Giggle v Tickle case.

Once actual Aussies rather than the terminally online/over privileged lovies who want a trans kid like they want a desinger puppy get a taste of this nonsense I have faith it will be knocked on the head.

I make it a point to spread the word far and wide, and most people either have no idea, or are still vaguely thinking of the occasional sad old guy who keeps his head down, and are horrified when they find out what is actually going on.

Maybe younger women in the 1990s thought that only the Republicans supported the patriarchy but that wasn't the feeling in the 1980s. The sexism and patriarchy of the civil rights movement (see, e.g., All the Women Are White, All the Blacks Are Men, But Some of Us Are Brave) led to the black women studies movement. The Anti-war movement was also infamous for being extremely sexist with men expecting women to make coffee, make copies, etc as well as provide sex. Women knew how sexist leftist men were bc there were plenty of women from the civil rights and anti war movements who were very active in feminist circles.

This video is from 1973 (NYC) but things hadn't changed much in the 1980s or 1990s.

Go to 4:08 to see that lesbians felt like they were being silenced in the gay rights movement.