If young men want ‘traditional’ gender roles, we need to know why - Kathleen Stock

[IwantToRetire]

Gen Z women and men are growing further apart in their political outlook and aspirations. It is vital the root causes are understood so we can all find common ground

Afew months ago, alongside other proud parents, I sat watching my teenager’s GCSE drama class showcase: a dozen short plays, devised and performed with gusto by small groups of pupils. In terms of theme, there was a definite attraction to the darker side of life; indeed, in nearly every play there was a hair-raising death. Another repetitive strand — at least, in pieces written partly or wholly by the girls — was the shoddiness of men’s behaviour.

One character struggled to find the kettle after his wife had died, having never used it before; another was violent to his family; and what viewer could forget the fiendish theatre manager, forcing dancers to take stimulants so that they could work longer hours? Worst of all, though, was the policeman who was also a serial killer, dramatically strangling his detective wife on stage after she discovered he was the culprit. There were also quite a few impassioned speeches about the prevalence of patriarchy and misogyny in society.

At the final curtain, I looked around at the mild-mannered, supportive fathers in the audience, many of whom had cut work short to be there. What could these men have done to their children, I wondered. Or, more seriously: was it possible to give young women today some awareness of male violence without causing them to write all men off?

Full article at https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/if-young-men-want-a-return-to-traditional-gender-roles-we-need-to-know-why-g3pnmfj56

I disagree with nearly everything she said, but agree this is something that more people need to be talking about.

Or I suspect, as it has always been, women will have to adjust their lives to accommodate intransigent men and boys.

Can be read at https://archive.ph/gGXMV

My TikTok algorithm took me to feminism tiktok a while ago.

Young women seem very clear on what they want - men to take equal share of shitty household jobs, equal share of the mental load, to take equal care of children so it’s not all down to their mother. There seem to be more women demanding better behaviour from potential partners, and will happily be single rather than dating a man who won’t step up.

Many men responding to these take real umbrage at them - we have to make the money (no you don’t, women can also work), we have to do the heavy lifting and the nasty jobs (women stepped into these roles very well during WW2!). There are reams of excuses why these men cannot and will not step up (obligatory NAMALT), and their actions once children are on the scene show how little they are committed to being equal partners and parents (based on families I know).

There’s then that thing where the young women saying “men! Do better!” also say “porn? Oh men have needs”, accept harmful sex practices as normal, which, whilst that seems great for men, as increasing deviant porn is becoming more and more acceptable, is actually also teaching them that women are expendable, women are there for their entertainment.

It must be confusing for growing boys (and continue the conditioning for girls) who see every day that women are the ones who teach them (I believe around 75% of teachers are women, happy to be corrected), who clean up after them, who feed them, who make sure their clothes are clean, then at some point they watch porn and see women in this whole other role, but still meeting men’s “needs” and “looking after them”, and rape is basically decriminalised, which sends even more confusing messages to boys and men.

Women are ready and willing to be equal earners, to take the bins out, to do the diy, to be equal partners, but too many men are resisting this and still want the status quo that allows them their freedoms, their choice to opt out of “women’s work”. Too many men are showing very clearly that they want women to be equal but still take on the wife and mother work.

I don’t know what the answer is but I think it involves better male role models on tv and films, more decent men teaching, porn being much more difficult to access.

@Plzdontaskmyname isn't it the case that even recently, men had to have something to offer in order to be with a woman. In this country, they'd usually used to have to have a job, date and make a nice impression then ask permission from the girls father.
It seems now that even the most laziest and undesirable man can trap a woman.
Btw im not saying the first scenario is ideal. I like that women are now independent and able to make a choice but they often don't make good choices! What's happened there?

You are now putting words into my mouth and making out that I am some sort of right wing fascist. I really take acceptation to your India comment.

I did not answer your points because they were not worthy of answering due to the fact you flew off the handle in some sort of social justice rant that I didn’t think was warranted or fair.

fwiw I totally agree with much of what you say. I do think as previously stated that I think capitalism is prone to exploitation and there is sexism infiltrating way too many of the infinite hierarchies that make up our world. But I do not think that it defines what capitalism sets out to achieve, rather it is comes as a result of corruption.

i do think that the way you see the world as being simply a ‘power and oppression’ fight between two groups, in this case men and women, conspiratorial. In any other case believing that there are unseen powers coming together and working against you in every faculty of your life to disempower you suggests to me that you have a victim mentality.

just out of interest, what does ‘success’ look like to you if you think that capitalism in every single way has been a failure? What is the alternative that you seem to know about that has been overlooked by just about everyone who has ever lived? Or do the powers that be actually know how to unlock a fair, harmonious and plentiful society but just choose to keep it under wraps because they are too busy finding new ways of oppressing women and anyone who isn’t a heterosexual white guy?

your version of feminism seems very reliant on obtaining men’s approval. I would like to live in a world where I do not need their permission to get on in life and teach my potential. I’d like to do it independently of them. So long as there are safeguarding measures and laws in place that serve to ensure my physical well-being, i will be fine thank you without the blessing of men. I don’t need them to approve of me or like me. The trouble is safeguarding and anti corruption is not taken seriously enough nor is it enforced and we therefore have our institutions full up of misogynists and psychopaths.

Don't despair. I don't trust these simplistic surveys. This thread shows the multiple interpretations on what feminism actually is.

https://theconversation.com/gen-z-boys-attitudes-to-feminism-are-more-nuanced-than-negative-222532#:~:text=Young%20men%20are%20more%20likely,done%20more%20harm%20than%20good.
Who’s a feminist?In our recent experience of working in schools delivering and evaluating an educational session designed to address harmful sexual behaviour in schools, we asked the young people how many would identify themselves as a feminist. In response, there were often just two or three hands raised, often accompanied by an odd snide comment from one of the boys.Both boys and girls seem disinclined to endorse feminism, with this perhaps counter-intuitive tendency among young women having been seen for some time.But when we probe a little deeper and ask if they believe in equality between genders or what they understand by feminism, a different picture emerges.The young people we work with often have a firm understanding of the inequality that exists between men and women. They typically endorse the idea that people should not be restricted or disadvantaged by their gender, but that possible disadvantage as a result of gender is nuanced and flows in both directions: both boys and girls are affected by gender stereotypes and pressures.The girls in the room are quick to point out the double standards which, they feel, means they are judged more harshly and experience more social shaming connected to their bodies and sexual behaviour than boys. They talk about the effect of gender inequality on their ability to make free choices and to feel safe in their day-to-day lives. Unwanted attention, sexual harassment and feeling unsafe are still a rite of passage for teenage girls.The boys, meanwhile, with the demands of masculinity thrust upon them, rarely consider themselves powerful or privileged. They are often insecure in their bodies, embarrassed and out of their depth – especially in their intimate and sexual relationships where they are expected to take control.We have found that young people have a straightforward desire for authentic and healthy relationships be that with their same- or opposite-sex peers. They find it difficult to translate these aspirations into reality, however, as they navigate existing social and cultural expectations and pressures surrounding gender and relationships.Boys and young men, in particular, are pulled between ideas of traditional masculinity and demands to be emotionally self-aware and sensitive

I think I'd roll my eyes a little at the kettle bit tbh. I don't think I've ever met a single bloke that can't manage to make a cuppa at home. I'm sure it'd be less well received if we had a woman trying to change a tyre and breaking a nail or something. 🤣

I live in the USA but my son has been well raised to know you never make a cup of tea for yourself without asking if anyone else wants one. The day he starting bringing me cups of tea made all those late night feeds worth it.

I'm not sure the view that feminism can be harmful is necessarily 'a backward step in attitudes to gender equality'. It might be but some of what is passed off as feminism nowadays is just an excuse to moan about men for some. Most people don't like ranty blue haired nutters tbh which is defo some of the 'feminists' young men will encounter at college/uni. 🤣

You see them banging on and on about how shit men are but then when challenged they suddenly go all "wut, you don't believe in equality/women's rights/etc?".

I mean, yes, that's kind of the idea, but it's ignoring a few elements - creating a stable family structure for children is a major part of this, and arguably from an evolutionary POV that's more important than how well it works for women or men.

I also would point out that just as a proportion of men are less than average, so are a proportion of women. The latter are more likely to procreate regardless, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are great prospects for mates themselves. The sense that women are all great and some have to settle for shitty men is a little misleading.

@TheScenicWay men had something to offer back then because they stood between women and the resources women and their children needed to survive. They were providers in the sense that a prison has to be a provider for the prisoners. That was on purpose, so that women would be forced to trade sex for survival. It was worth it to men to work when it ensured access to a woman's body, and her lifelong service. For the moment we're not doing that anymore (although lots of men, like Jordan Peterson, advocate that we go back to that system) but we don't have an alternate set of cultural norms to switch to, we're making it up as we go along and both men and women are having to invent new ways of valuing themselves and each other.

What men offer (other than paternity and provision) that is unique to them, especially in a less civilized context, is protection. Having a man as a partner protects a woman and children from predators, such as other men. The reason men are physically bigger than women is that women have consistently chosen physically bigger sexual partners over thousands of years. As a species both human sexes have to be attractive to the opposite sex (unlike the peacock/peahen for example). How the sexes look different on sight has developed through sexual selection.
Women therefore decided having a male partner who could physically protect them and any children was a quality to select for. Men still do the majority of protecting jobs to this day: military, police, firefighters etc. Jobs where physical strength and ability to manhandle people or equipment are important.

I agree to an extent about the different offerings of men and women, but I think what's often lost in discussions like this is how the male/female dynamic works in a healthy, functional relationship. When I look at my grandparents and parents, the biggest thing that men offer women is companionship, love and someone to share the burden of life with. It wasn't so much trading offerings but pooling skills and attributes to make life easier and more enjoyable for both.

Men still have this to offer and it's a shame that they don't lean more into this. The man's share of responsibilities might look different now than it did 70 years ago but there is still a lot to be said for lightening the load and being someone's partner through life.

I did my 11+ in the early 1960s and I wonder if one factor (among many) in girls’ higher performance was that they may have read more, both through expectations (sit quietly and read a book) and inclination (greater intellectual maturity).
The exam was very literacy heavy in those days.

We need a world where both men and women are happy, and that requires compromise. All social relationships require compromise, and problems can’t be solved if only one set of needs are considered.

Jordan Peterson identifies a problem and a solution- that young men need to shape up. He doesn’t ask women to accept substandard men- he points out that long term they are unhappy if they do that. I’ve only ever seen him suggest men shape up.

A PP identified one of the things men offer women- protection.

Another thing men have is strength and endurance. Downplaying that does none of us favours. My boys have strength beyond measure, and have little idea how much harder every physical task is for women. We should be celebrating that, not diminishing it.

Women and men offer each other companionship and combined resources- both in the home and the workplace. It takes two to raise a family- less than two and it’s hard, hard work and sacrifice for the remaining parent.

If we can address the motherhood penalty, we’d all do so much better.

@IwantToRetire You did say that ‘I disagree with nearly everything she said, but agree this is something that more people need to be talking about.’

you should have added ‘who share my view’ in between ‘people’ and ‘need’.

I don’t think this is universally true. Many women wanted to get married/have children but in the absence of contraception they needed husbands to provide for them. Although of course women did work in various ways.

I think that while many men benefited from the old systems, I don’t think there was a conspiracy to enslave women. I can’t really think how you’d avoid women being dependent on men in a world without contraception.

The interesting thing is the exam was designed with an assumption there would be no difference in the boys and girls results.What societies have failed to grapple with is the long tail of underachievement of boys.
Reading is one of the factors and yet for many working class men and boys reading is girl's stuff.

At uni in the early 70s friend of mine had wanted to study medicine. She'd been refused a place not because of her grades but there was a cap on the number of women.

The fact is women are just as capable as men - otherwise there wouldn't have had to be so much effort put into keeping women out of education and jobs.

As more careers attract women they lose men as they gradually become lower status and less well paid. It started with token women who were accepted as 'special' but as soon as it became about 30% it became seen as a take over. Eg GPs, teaching, librarians, HR departments. It could be seen as male flight.

It’s odd because now a lot of people celebrate girls getting their periods, as a sign that their bodies can now do something amazing. But boys become physically stronger and bigger as adolescents and that should be prized too, as it was/is in many traditional and indigenous cultures.

Although physical strength is now less essential for work and survival, it is still important, particularly in the domestic sphere. My DP and I have a 50:50 split of childcare and I out earn him. He does laundry, cooking etc etc. But there are specific things he does that I can’t do and I really value that (eg hedge cutting - I can’t lift the hedge cutter high enough).

I think there is type of feminism that cannot see nuance and therefore cant accept that men may be better at some things than women as that is seen as a threat to equality.

I think there is type of feminism that cannot see nuance and therefore cant accept that men may be better at some things than women as that is seen as a threat to equality.

It's often a fairly daft failure to distinguish between sex class vs individuals.
More men than women will have the necessary physique to be firefighters but that doesn't mean all men will be better than all women at that job so no women should do it, to take an obvious example.

In the rush to celebrate what women can achieve, that as individuals we can install shelves and chop wood, we’ve lost the fact that it’s just easier for men to do it.

My youngest is small, and perhaps feels he can’t compete in manliness with his six foot mates. I need to subtly check he realises he has a lot to offer, and is still ten times stronger than me!

Mine are great with their granny, not so good with me 🤣 I am apparently mistress of all things and less in need of manly assistance!

I think people spend too much time worrying about what teenagers think.

For instance there seems to be an obsession with getting worried about teenage boys referencing Andrew Tate and a moral panic around it, when I can imagine that a lot of the boys are only repeating it because it's rebelling against the school environment, a few years later they'll grow out of it.

I'd be more concerned about the men who have those opinions once they go out and start earning money, and then in a position of influence.

Teenagers grow out of a lot of things, a lot of them will grow out of misogyny and gender ideology.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7227885/Tradeswoman-trolled-online-beating-men-Plasterer-Year-title.html

A cousin of mine back in 7Os came out top in driving digger at her company. Only girl - left soon after due to treatment by colleagues. Ended up driving taxis.

I'm sick of women being expected to smooth men's fragile egos.

men's fragile egos

😀Thought it was going too well - a pendulum just gotta swing if it wants to keep busy.

The obvious reason why is that equality feels like a loss of status to a group that has been privileged up to now, and any approach that suggests formerly disadvantaged groups should be treated with respect (i.e. liberal attitudes) will undermine the hierarchical model these young men have been brought up to expect.

Also, many of the traditional female roles men are being asked to take on are the drudge work. It’s not exactly a surprise that they’re not queuing up to clean toilets. Same as women are not queuing up to go down mines or up scaffolding.

This.
Because not many people actually enjoy "wifework", like cleaning, putting food on the table every night, buying birthday presents for DC's friends, etc.
Some people genuinely enjoy this stuff, but on the whole I bet most people would like someone else to do their laundry for them.

So why would those in the dominant position, who have had this kind of service, be willing to give it up? They are not willing.
As countless posts on this site show, most men will never, ever, willingly take on traditional "wifework". They only do it because the alternative is she will divorce him.