Mixed changing room - is this considered ok these days?

[Scirocco]

Today I took my toddler swimming. Or rather, tried to.

We walked in to a giant changing area, with rows of cubicles with partial height walls and doors (gaps above and below them, doors low enough that you could see the heads of people changing). No single sex changing option. Men walking around mid-change (a towel round a waist, for example). The aisle in between the cubicles had quite a few people (all men or boys) standing looking at their phones.

Maybe it's me, maybe I'm just being prudish, but it felt really inappropriate and unsafe, with an absence of privacy.

When I asked the receptionist if there was single-sex changing available, I was told no, because it's more inclusive this way...

Is this the normal now?

(We went to the park instead.)

If I was that concerned and as i said, I'd take my business to another place and/or start a petition etc to get them to meet my demands.

The choice is yours.

We have a changing village. It works well, IMO. The lines of cubicles are in line with one of the pools, so lifeguards will have a view down each line, so anyone trying to use a phone would be spotted. Also, one of the lifeguards is usually in the changing area doing cleaning on their non-poolside stint. I don't know whether they've ever had issues with cameras, but it would be harder to do it unnoticed.

The cubicles/doors don't reach right to the floor - I always assumed this was to facilitate cleaning and drainage, as rotting door and cubicle bottoms would be unattractive and unhygienic, and more costlyas they'd need more frequent replacing. However, the doors are otherwise full length. There are bars across the top, (which I assumed were mostly for stability without cutting out the overhead lighting,) but the cubicles are quite high - someone well over 6ft would have no problem standing upright.

I'm not that bothered about stripping off in public, but I would find cubicle doors up to chest height challenging.

We do have poolside showers, but there are also some individual shower cubicles for those who want to strip off entirely. They aren't really large enough to hang dry clothes in though, so you need to use a big towel that wraps right round and go to a cubicle to dress. The loos are all single sex.

A woman I assume is Muslim has joined our aquafit classes - at least, she was entirely covered save her hands feet and face, so not everyone is put off by it. However, I wouldn't know if others are put off by the changing village, because they won't be at the pool, and neither will people who just don't want to swim.

Anyway, I think if well-designed, changing villages are probably a more effective use of space - I feel I have more privacy in an individual cubicle than in a larger changing room, even if that's single sex. Though I've not been there when it's a really busy session like a wet school holiday day, so maybe it could get really busy, I don't know.

Presumably women who actively choose to avoid being in the company of strange men would not be attending a mixed sex swimming session anyway? Your argument is for women-only sessions really. I think these are quite common in areas with lots of religious minorities aren't they?

I’m reminded of this Magdelen Berns video - why ask corporate if YOU can wear the men’s uniform, when you could ask corporate to do away with the sexism for everyone?

Why petition your local baths so that an individual woman gets her needs met when we can petition government so that ALL women can have single sex changing areas?

’Just take your custom elsewhere’ seems a bit… capitalist? I’m not doffing my cap at the corporations, ta very much!

You are seeing this purely from your own point of view.
Not everyone has a ten year old (or thereabouts) DS. Not everyone would be as relaxed as you seem to be if someone tried to film their child getting changed. Not everyone is able to wave away the fact that someone is sharing naked pictures of them online.
When my son was young I used family areas or if DH was there then they would go together. It worked for me then.
However, if I go swimming on my own, I still want to be safe and for that reason would like the option to be in a single sex space if I choose to.
I worry about women's spaces being eroded.
I also worry about knife crime, county lines and drug dealing although I don't see their relevance on this thread.

What if there are no other places with a different policy?

As was the case for Sarah Summers when a rape crisis organisation refused to provide any single sex sessions because "trans women are women" and suggested she look elsewhere for a different, non existent, rape crisis service which believes female rape survivors have a right to single sex support.

Just to clarify - most women don't mind swimming with men, but they don't want to change/get naked and shower in the same room as men.

Women of faith attending a women-only session would not be able to change/get naked and shower in a mixed sex changing room. I think I point out somewhere else in this thread that the changing rooms serve all the pools, so other mixed-sex swim sessions would be taking place at the same time as the women-only swim, and there might be men in the changing room.

So...two groups of women, although there would be overlap, who may self-exclude if no single sex changing and showering is available. Single sex plus unisex family cubicles or a changing village caters for everyone.

@sleepyscientist

👋 Did you see this? I had a couple of questions for you.

Men and boys are 98% of convicted sex offenders. So it's not "regardless of gender" (by which I assume you mean sex).

You have weighed up the statistically low risk of your child being kidnapped/abducted Vs the higher risk of you or your child being victims of sex offences. You have decided that you prefer to take the risk of sexual offences being committed against you and your child. Do you think it is fair to remove the choice of women who have decided the other way?

Have you thought about getting your DH to take your DS swimming or into the male changing room?

My experience of Tooting Lido, which has the often photographed rows of wooden beach hut type changing rooms with doors of different colours is that holes start to appear in the wood. They get filled up every so often but then appear again. I was about to get changed one day when I spotted an eye looking through one of the holes which was at about hip height. Ugh. I was tempted to poke it.

There are holes in the wooden walls all the way along. This type of activity is common. Worse now with camera phones.

@Snowypeaks oh, I hadn't considered that there might be multiple pools and only one might be running a single sex session. All the swimming pools I've been to just have the one pool.

I suppose that might be the case with newer or outdoor pools.

Like anyhting, if there is no venue prvoiding needs, expectations of a group of people, they start their own place out of their own pocket.

I've said everything I needed to say and not wanting to repeat myself when I've already answered the same, similar questions

The choice is easy, go to another place, petition, start up your own place or dont go. There is nothing more I can say other than reiterate that if I was unhappy with a serive as I, we have been, we go to another place or dont bother, honestly it is as simple as that.

I'm no fan of 20mph on major roads but it is what it is and I have to accpet it or try to avoid those roads as much as possible,

NB: The case you refer to I have no knowldge on this and my comments are genral comments of what I expect and do

Take care

You think it's more reasonable to expect women who want single sex spaces to fundraise for, get planning permission for, build and run a new swimming pool than it is for existing local authority leisure centres which are funded by those women's taxes to provide some single sex spaces?

Ditto rape crisis services?

Wow.

And bet your life if new facilities were set up there would be entitled men still demanding to be let in.

Sarah Summers: I'm not comfortable talking about my rape in front of male people. Do you have any single sex support groups for female survivors only?

Survivors' Network: Trans women are women and belong in all women's spaces. If you want single sex support you will have to look elsewhere.

Sarah Summers (to other local rape crisis organisations): I'm not comfortable talking about my rape in front of male people. Do you have any single sex support groups for female survivors only?

All other rape crisis organisations in Sussex: Trans women are women and belong in all women's spaces. If you want single sex support you will have to look elsewhere.

Sarah Summers: There don't appear to be any.

Trans Activists: Trans women are women and belong in all women's spaces. If you want single sex support you will have to start your own.

Sarah Summers (to meeting venues): I'm looking to start a female only rape crisis support group. We need a safe space which is guaranteed to be female only while we are using it. Can you help?

Trans Activists (to meeting venues): Don't host this group of women, they're an anti trans hate group.

Meanwhile in Scotland...

Mridul Wadhwa (trans woman and CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre): Female rape survivors who want single sex support are bigots who need to reframe their trauma. If they want to be helped they can expect to be challenged on their prejudices.

Female rape survivor (to Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre): Sorry to ask, but the counsellor I have been allocated uses they/them pronouns. Can you confirm whether they are female or male?

Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre: No we can't, go away you transphobic bigot.

Female employee of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre: Wait...WHAT? We shouldn't be doing that.

Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre to female employee: You're fired!

JK Rowling: Female rape survivors should have access to single sex rape crisis support. This is a scandal.

Trans Activists to JK Rowling: Trans women are women and belong in all women's spaces. If bigoted rape survivors want single sex support, they'll have to start their own.

JK Rowling: Well, luckily I'm a billionaire...

(sets up Beira's Place)

Trans Activists: JK Rowling the evil Nazi TERF witch has set up a transphobic rape crisis centre. BURN IT TO THE GROUND!

Women of faith attending a women-only session would not be able to change/get naked and shower in a mixed sex changing room

I’ve been looking this up as I’m intrigued now about this. What the internet bought up (from actual sources, rather than just from mumsnet threads and weird transgender websites) was that the problem with Muslim women swimming is the way clothing sticks to the body, which is haram in the presence of men. It is nothing to do with being within the vicinity of men. However I then came across this which was the second from top Google response - https://islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/159926

Which I’d hoped was satire, but it appears not. I think this is not a conversation for ‘white saviours’ to try and solve. The issue of religious oppression can stem much larger than a swimming pool petition and clearly voices on it shouldn’t come from those who don’t know much about the religion (myself included)

Women of faith attending a women-only session would not be able to change/get naked and shower in a mixed sex changing room

I’ve been looking this up as I’m intrigued now about this. What the internet bought up (from actual sources, rather than just from mumsnet threads and weird transgender websites) was that the problem with Muslim women swimming is the way clothing sticks to the body, which is haram in the presence of men. It is nothing to do with being within the vicinity of men. However I then came across this which was the second from top Google response - https://islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/159926

Which I’d hoped was satire, but it appears not. I think this is not a conversation for ‘white saviours’ to try and solve. The issue of religious oppression can stem much larger than a swimming pool petition and clearly voices on it shouldn’t come from those who don’t know much about the religion (myself included)

Our local pools all have a mixed family section and smaller single sex rooms. The mixed one is all cubicles but the single sex is open with benches.
With kids I prefer mixed because we have 2 DDs so it's much easier if DH can be in the same changing room as us to help out, or if he takes them swimming on his own.
People shouldn't be on their phones though- maybe mention that to staff

Two decades back, when we used to care about integration and racial equality I was involved in a fund designed to support young people in an area of south London. One of the concerns was the very high suicide rate amongst Muslim teenagers.

I met "community leaders", mainly led by a white convert, who told me that young Muslim girls wanted cookery and housekeeping lessons to help prepare them for being good wives. Not that much later I met a group of girls from that community and asked similar questions. No surprise. They wanted single sex activities that their parents would let them attend and where they could mix with their non Muslim school friends. They also wanted access sports including swimming. Essentially they wanted to be both British and Muslim.

I worked quite hard to identify a school swimming pool that would be available for hire and where both pool and changing rooms could be single sex. Unfortunately this was vetoed by the elders, indeed they told me off for talking to the girls directly. I hope things have improved. My concern is that with all our focus on LGBT++equality we are sending the message to young Muslims that we don't care if they take part in our society or not, and that, as per posts above, we don't care if they are excluded as long as the men are happy.

There are as many opinions (as my mum used to say) as backsides. Some are just barking !

Edited for total misunderstanding of point made by pp!

My local pool has a mixed changing area but with full height doors. No way in hell would I be prepared to change in there with men present if the doors weren’t full height.

Hi, Holg

We probably can't do anything about the religious strictures which some women feel they have to abide by, but we can help make pools and gyms accessible to everyone. I used to go to women-only sessions at my local pool and 90% of the women there were Muslim. Some wore what looked like bathing dresses, others wore all-in-ones. Most of them spent the entire session in a group, sitting on the edge or paddling in the shallow end, virtually all just chatting. That speaks volumes to me. It was like meeting for a coffee or in the park, but without men.

This is an interesting discussion. Here in Canada, newer swimming pools all seem to have male, female, and family changing rooms. All have cubicles and lockers. We always use the family changing room. One time there was a father, with his two primary-aged kids, walking about naked (he was German) in the shower and common area of the family changing room. I gave him short shrift. But recently, my husband took the kids to an older swimming pool which has only male and female changing rooms, and no cubicles. He was really reluctant to let our 8-year-old daughter go into the female changing room on her own, because of the whole thing about males in female spaces. There was no other choice though.

This.

It is not 'more inclusive', that's a lazy downloaded thought that is in actual fact a lie.

It permits a very small group who are mostly men, the privilege of more freedom of self expression and choosy choices (which include easier abuse and sexual harassment and harm of women and children) at the cost of entirely excluding those who require privacy, dignity, single sex provision. The massive majority of those excluded will be women. The disadvantage will be sex based and binary. The advantage will be mostly also sex based and binary: this is mostly pushed for by men for men, who have a very strong desire to be with women in a state of undress and for those women to have no right of consent.

If you're into racial exclusion, religious and cultural intolerance, a single faith society, ableism, ageism, misogyny and homophobia - because they'll CALL it LGBT but they mean T and they've thrown out the LGBs who want to be able to openly choose partners by biological sex? If you're in to excluding large groups of society and raising kids to believe that they deserve exclusion because they can't fit in with the belief zeitgeist of the second? If you're into teaching your daughter that she's a second class service human and her right to privacy must be subordinated to the right of a man to watch her take her clothes off and expose himself to her without her arguing back? Then crack on, this kind of fuck up is all for you. And because of you.

Inclusion means adding to. Not taking away. Inclusion also does not mean 'we are scared to say no to difficult, shouty, scary men's rights activists'.