Mixed changing room - is this considered ok these days?

[Scirocco]

Today I took my toddler swimming. Or rather, tried to.

We walked in to a giant changing area, with rows of cubicles with partial height walls and doors (gaps above and below them, doors low enough that you could see the heads of people changing). No single sex changing option. Men walking around mid-change (a towel round a waist, for example). The aisle in between the cubicles had quite a few people (all men or boys) standing looking at their phones.

Maybe it's me, maybe I'm just being prudish, but it felt really inappropriate and unsafe, with an absence of privacy.

When I asked the receptionist if there was single-sex changing available, I was told no, because it's more inclusive this way...

Is this the normal now?

(We went to the park instead.)

That's not what I said.

Then what’s your solution?

Because single sex changing allows both women who follow orthodox religions and women with no religion to participate in swimming at leisure centres.

But women who follow orthodox religions won't swim in a pool with men in it anyway, so the changing rooms aren't the issue (for them specifically).

Surely it's a more feminist solution to encourage women to reject an ideology that's so against their best interests? I say that as someone who was a fundamentalist Christian for years.

I see what you mean. But we aren't in Afghanistan.

I feel a bit conflicted about women who wear the hijab in the UK, for example, because I know strong, intelligent, professional women who are very insistent that it is their choice to wear it, and yet I still find it difficult to accept it when it only applies to women and not to men.

I think ultimately you can disapprove of it and still accept that people have a right to follow the rules of their religion in an essentially secular western democracy. Perhaps over time more exposure to people from different religions or no religions will dilute some of the more conservative aspects of it.

But in the meantime I think it's important to make space for them to participate in society as fully as possible.

Religious women aren't the only women who want and need single sex spaces. But they are some of the women who will be excluded if these things don't exist.

Loads of leisure centres have more than one pool. Mine has three.

There are women-only sessions in two of the pools at various times during the week.

In terms of the 'religious angle', I don't think single sex options for changing prop up anything disgusting or gruesome.

Some religious women (and men) might want to participate in activities like swimming, but have to self-exclude because there's nowhere for them to get changed. For some people, they can go somewhere else that has the facilities they need. But for some people, it closes that door entirely and that can have further-reaching consequences for that person.

Take, for example, a woman who is experiencing misogynistic oppression at home which means she isn't able to freely choose her style of dress or where she goes/who she sees/etc. If she can manage to get to a swimming pool or gym for a class, she can meet other women, gain exposure to how other people choose to live and discover that she has options other than compliance with misogynistic oppression. She can develop her confidence and maybe become able to challenge some of her own experiences. If she doesn't have anywhere to change so that she can participate in the activity, none of therest of that can happen.

As another example, a woman can be religious, choose to cover her head or her body, and not be being oppressed. A lack of single sex changing options excludes her too.

There are plenty of religions where the strict adherents require segregation by sex. It's not just Islam.

And frankly, I'm beginning to think Islam is less sexist than gender ideology for most who practice it (not your Taliban etc - actually there's a reason why they're called the TRAliban - lot of things in common like not giving a shit about how women feel - they have absolutely shown that if they can do things against women's consent they will)

Also, these changing rooms will often exclude disabled people. They exclude my friend who mostly needs a wheelchair because it takes her a long time to get ready to swim (and changed afterwards) and she's not ok with being so vulnerable with men around. The stats on sexual assault of disabled women are already grim - why put them in a position where it's known sexual offending is higher?

Again - the the main groups of people mixed sex changing is inclusive of is voyeurs and sex offenders. The truly inclusive option is having single sex options plus mixed sex. Having these options also would probably deter the sex offenders as there's less chance of having unconsenting single women and children in those spaces.

But they can. There's a wide range of modest swimwear options, including turbans and scarves for women who choose to cover their hair in public.

And how do they define "women only"?

It's a complicated issue, certainly, and I don't want to over-simplify it. However, I do think a lot of GC feminists are suddenly using the "BUT MUSLIMS!" argument to try and advance their cause without properly understanding the people they're suddenly claiming to champion, and the issues they really face.

It annoys me and feels ignorant and hypocritical. While I appreciate a lot of left-wing politics has got a bit overrun by gender woo and GC feminists hate this, just because a group has ideas that you're sympathetic towards in one area doesn't mean you should support them wholeheartedly.

Elsewhere on here I've seen people arguing that the most GC candidate in the London Mayoral Election is from Britain First. Does that mean you should vote for them? No!!!!

Sure, we should care about Muslims being excluded from healthy activities and do more to help them, but I don't think suddenly trying to co-opt ideas thousands of years old to make a point is really the way to do it, and I feel like it's rather cynically using women who are excluded because their religious leaders constantly find ways to justify it, not because of the layout of the changing rooms.

A mixed changing village is the only type of set up that I can use with my disabled DSes who are too old to come into a woman's changing room with me. We have to travel to visit centres as our local one has single sex. So I do not want all single sex but agree that having both available is the ideal.

Mine have been brilliant at holding the line (the receptionist very clearly says ‘female’ as in ‘female gym’ which I thought was dead weird at first but that was way back in circa 2015 so now I realise why the strange phrasing!) but the ‘proportionate means for legitimate aim’ is argued on the basis that there are 9 other council owned leisure centres and the one with women only gym room is in the area with the highest percentage of orthodox religious residents who are categorised as a ‘hard to reach group’ for health and exercise messaging.

I don’t know if they’ve ever been challenged by a trans user.

It's OK for some, but many fundamentalists would still insist that no men are present, and that all the women dress like that.

I’m sympathetic to women living under ALL
patriarchal structures.

Good.

Which means creating systems that allow them to participate in public life, including swimming, yes?

Hopefully fundamentalist covers a very small minority.

I've met lots of women from different cultures and faiths who choose to wear outfits that cover their bodies to different degrees, but none have said that.

Our swimming class has men and women there as parent participants and other pool users, and there are women there who wear long sleeved outfits, turbans/scarves, etc while comfortably swimming alongside men.

Exactly.

I’m glad you are able to access swimming, along with your DS.

But all mixed sex excludes many women (including me).

It's actually safer to have a gap at the top and bottom as if it's truly floor to ceiling anything could happen inside without anyone knowing. I'm not bothered and happy to sunbathe topless, mixed sex is great with DS who is 10 as he can go in a separate cubicle but be near us. I would hate to send him into another room as you don't know who is behind the door (male or female), I'm more worried about kidnap murder than someone getting a photo of me undressed.

I'm more worried about kidnap murder than someone getting a photo of me undressed.

Why? Statistically stranger kidnap and murder is very rare, whilst voyeurism in changing rooms is so common some swimming baths have resorted to building cage type structures over the top of cubicles.

mixed changing villages are the norm, yes. When my local pool had a refurb, I was told that all public (e.g council owned) new gym/pools now followed that model rather than split sex. It's also the norm in places like center parcs, bluestone etc. Saying that I've never been to one where the doors were small enough you could see inside cubicles, that's the only bit that sounds strange!

If it's that much of an issue you might find an older pool that is still single sex, or most private ones are. Or just wear your costume to the pool and use a changing robe after. Or put long t shirt/hoody on over swimming costume, take costume off, put trousers on. Minimal exposure even if someone was looking. You can shower properly at home.

I used to live in Tower Hamlets and the women-only swimming sessions offered by the council at various places were always popular, with women of all faiths and none. I'm glad they still exist.

Or just wear your costume to the pool and use a changing robe after. Or put long t shirt/hoody on over swimming costume, take costume off, put trousers on. Minimal exposure even if someone was looking. You can shower properly at home.

Dmum used to teach us that for the beach - or beach loos - towel under arms tied costume off - pants/trousers/skirt on under towel and then big top - towel off and then sort bra under t-shirt. It's doable.

I have to admit I go swimming with people often at busy times - but suspect I'd be less than happy in mixed changing rooms even well designed ones later at night with fewer people around and at end of session or something with less staff as well even if village is visible from pool because it would feel less safe.

It makes a self imposed limit due to internal risk assessment that I just accept and don't think much about - it would be very location dependent there may be some I'd be happy with.

It’s not really practical for non drivers to go home in a dressing gown to shower tho. I’m not getting on a bus like that!

I don’t know if it’s considered normal but of the three pools within a 40 minute drive I’ve stopped going to two of them because of this. And because one of the pools has shared showers where a teenage boy got an erection watching me rinse off.

I don’t want to swim badly enough to put up with this shit.

Write and complain but not to the pool, to whoever has influence over who is funding the pool eg if your local council provides funds towards it write to them and also your MP.