I give up

[PullUpTheDrawbridge]

FFS I am just so tired of it all. I'm in an unrelated comedy related FB group that is usually light hearted but every now and again, the same old (trans) faces pipe up with their monthly JKR slag-off post. Tonight, for the second month in a row, I gently put my hand up to say not EVERYONE thinks she's bigoted, abusive hate-speaker. Some people think she's standing up for women and children's rights. I got a few likes, but the majority of people took it as a cue to virtue signal their 'be-kind, live-and-let-live, trans-ally' bullshit. I just can't make a dent. Some of the posts are even arguing that GC types are reducing everything to genitals and body stereotypes as if we are the anti feminist ones. I just don't know where to start. Anything you say is immediately hammered down with this sort of bullshit

"This isn't a debate and quite depressing that people are treating it as such, I would hope that fans of XXX would be more progressive as they are. Trans lives aren't a debate. They exist, always have and always will.
Just as society has gone through these moral panics before and targeted communities, it is now happening with the trans community and it is so fucking unacceptable and abhorrent, just as it has been in the past."

"For me it's just the new thing for awful people to hate on. Be who you want to be, as long as you're happy and not hurting anyone it's no one's business but your own. I genuinely don't understand the problem. It amazes me that this is a discussion in our so called 'civilised society"

I'm exhausted with it all. 21K members and I was the only GC voice. What's the point?

There'll always be laggards in any societal shift.

These days I'm sure the vast vast majority of women would agree that it's right and fair that women can vote. But during the turn of the 20th century there were many, probably most even, women saying things like that "I don't see what all the fuss is about, my husband listens to my opinion before he votes" etc. Lots of sources from the time showing that many had this view

Edit - I don't mean this to sound pessimistic. Just that some people need time to get to grips with a new idea.

21 thousand members.
Here is the problem, right here.
If you were in a conversation with three other people face to face, the dynamics would be different.
The way we have conversations- like on here with unknown numbers of anonymous people - is altering the development of ideas.
Robots and sock puppets can be used to quickly dominate an online discussion leaving people thinking they are in the minority.
Does anyone even remember the days when if you were lonely you had to go to the pub and chat to whoever was there?

I don't do social media much myself, so haven't come across this. But one way of arguing publicly with naive stupidity is the faux naive move in reply. You might try, for example, "Yes, I'm sure you're right. ... It's just that ..."

Examples ...
"... It's just that I don't like how the trans movement seems to hate gay people so much."

"... It's just that I don't like how "trans" seems to want to enforce nasty outdated gender stereotypes on us all."

"... It's just that I don't like how the trans movement seems to want to stop women playing sport."

"... It's just that I don't like how "trans" seems to be so right-wing like the nazis were."

"... It's just that I don't like how the trans movement seems to want us to lie to our children about everything."

"... It's just that I don't like how "trans" seems to be so dominated by such awful men."

... And so on.

Of course it helps that you can pick so many nasty truths that do actually apply, as well as seeming to, to "trans" or the trans movement.

You know, we have tried do hard!! And progress is definitely being made, for sure, but it does sometimes feel like such an uphill struggle - I have really stepped back from talking to anyone except people I know agree with me about this, and it's incredibly frustrating to hear people going on about how fantastic it is that kids can be their true self etc.

I am fairly certain that there are a few people in my immediate friendship group who are going to have this all hit hone very hard and very soon - they have been falling over themselves for years to affirm a school friend of one of their daughters, against her parents wishes - someone even bought her a binder and they all use her preferred pronouns when she visits their houses, and the parents don't know. I tried warning them - 'be kind!! It's so hard for her.... Oh, him.....' - they don't even believe it themselves but I think there is an element of being desperate to be seen as accepting and 'cool'.

If this child desists, and claims she was harmed in any way by these supposedly kind adults, they could all be held culpable. I tried to tell them. We will have to see.

And also, how long before some kind trans ally I know turns up to a doctor's appointment, court date, teacher meeting, job interview, house viewing, therapy appointment, meeting with the bank, meeting with an accountant, or even just goes to the toilet to find themselves face to face with this:

https://twitter.com/babetta123/status/1776519018167275896?t=owqFhr5hNB7VzAsiVVn0QQ&s=19

I only skim read the FB posts you’ve attached but anyone who mentions the Holocaust when discussing this particular issue isn’t worth discussing it with.

Thank you so much for all this support ladies. It is so heartening. I barely slept last night thinking about this. I'm not worried or stressed, it's just so gaslighty/ Emperor's New Clothesy.
I want to be be able to have a sensible conversation about but it just gets so hysterical and flouncy so quickly. I don't know where to start.
Luckily the trans author of the original JKR bitch fest post does it so often that I think people probably are rolling their eyes when HE posts, unless they have trans children/ relatives, which seems to be the case with a lot of the supporters.
I love JKR but maybe it's better to save my energy for protecting/ talking about the actual issues I'm worried about - single sex spaces, women in sport, gender stereotypes, the unique biological experiences of women, freedom of speech and the centrality of biological sex.

This individual, by the way, isn't satirical in any way. Yes, this person actually turned up to defend a client in court dressed like this - and noone said anything. They do it because they CAN and if they can they WILL, and other people won't like it and might start to complain then. But we tried to warn them, before it got to this point....

https://twitter.com/babetta123/status/1776519018167275896?t=owqFhr5hNB7VzAsiVVn0QQ&s=19

@PullUpTheDrawbridge Save your energy for people who engage their mind when discussing serious issues. I’m sure you can be more productive in other areas. I don’t think this FB group is good for your mental wellbeing 💐

guinnessguzzler · Today 08:50

Honestly you can't argue with stupid.

Your post was an excellent piece of prose, very well put.

Heard the one about the new designs for public toilets that make them more dangerous for everyone?
Unfortunately it’s not a joke and due to gender ideology.

I hear you. I've had to withdraw from a friend who works in psychotherapy after they said horrific sweary and personal things about JK. I picked them up on it and was told that JK is unkind and uninclusive and that's why it's ok to use personal slurs against her. Then I was given the "trans women are women" mantra. Such a luxury belief for white heterosexual men in professional jobs and already married, so they can easily claim that trans women are women because they don't need to explain why they won't date them. And in their lives, their loved ones are unlikely to be in a situation where they are inconvenienced or uncomfortable through the presence of men in women's single sex spaces.

It is really depressing but it’s a fb page, it really is not worth getting into debate with anyone who is a “top contributor” to a fb page.
When you speak to the majority of people in real life about this stuff they do not support gender ideology- well anyone over the age of about 35 anyway.

I don’t get into debate with people who lack the critical thinking to see an argument from both sides before picking a side. It really, really isn’t worth it.

The Nazis, huh? The ones who continued issuing cross-dressing licenses for years (they stopped them during the war, but that was because war, not because they had a principled objection to cross-dressing).

The Nazis who employed the man who performed one of the first 'sex-change' operations to perform experiments (about cold tolerance) on prisoners in Dachau?

The Nazis who hated people who were attracted to those of the same sex?

The Nazis who pushed a deeply stereotypical 'norm' for women's dress and behavior?

Those Nazis?

The other thing that is coming through at some schools now is that the older ones, particularly sixth formers are openly joking about gender ideology. It’s interesting it’s gone like this as they are joking how they got caught up in being pansexual/non-binary etc etc. it is seen as an immature lower school thing to do. Especially amongst the (apologies for the descriptor) ‘geeky’ kids. They are also laughing at themselves on how they used to be - it is seen as unfashionable now. Gay and lesbian are accepted as that.
Theres a lot of rolling eyes.
Your older comedians who are desperately being kind and trotting out set phrases would be eye rolled too.

I'm in an arty FB group - someone commented about visiting an art show and all of the artists statements about themselves had been really badly edited to be "theys" rather than he or she (some had missed the edit, which is why it was so bad, eg half way through a They switched to a She)

Really interesting discussion started about how we perceive work if we know it's by a woman, is being female an important part of who we are - and so our art. People talking about their identity as mothers. How we should be free to express being female.... and then we got the "as the mother of a trans adult " post. All discussion on that thread instantly stopped - everyone afraid of "saying the wrong thing". It was a fascinating display of the chilling effect.

Its hard get your head around but Some people don't care if you're right or wrong, they just care about looking virtuous. Unfortunately I found this out the hard way when i stuck my head above the parapet and someone I thought was a close friend blatantly used me to signal their own virtue - badmouthing, veiled social media posts (which someone else told me about as I'm not on fb) etc. Not everyone has the same integrity or tries to do the right thing or engage in good faith. Some people are actively looking for those opportunities to elevate themselves while kicking someone else. As hard as it is I would avoid giving those people the opportunity now, I won't make the same mistake twice!

21k members and those posts have 4 likes.

I don't think you need worry too much.

I always start with Dolatowski. He wouldn't have been able to abuse the children he abused without being allowed in the women's toilets. It's quite clear.

By accepting men like Dolatowski - 6ft5 - in women's spaces because he IDs as a woman you open up those children to sexual assault. It's quite simple, who is more important the children or Dolatowski. The TRA handmaidens are putting Dolatowski's desires over the children's safety. Now, that may be their thing - make them own it.

Other examples are available. Next is Amy / Andrew Miller.

I love the faux naiveté of your '.. it's just that' approach, negeme, it gets around the moral high ground/ virtue signalling rather well. You can almost hear the slight sigh as you are forced to point out this little discrepancy...
Machiavellian, and i mean that in the nicest possible way☺

I was going to suggest composing a 'prepared statement' offline, OP, and posting it or a version any time you feel you must get involved in these discussions. Get the emotional cost of explaining reality out of the way once, and then just wheel it out...

But negeme's suggested formula is brilliant. You could even have a stock of those,ready to deploy.

I've never done social media either, and OP's experience makes me feel I made the right choice. So sorry you've felt so despairing, OP, and here's the traditional MN gesture: . Or 🍰😊

True. They are a minority on FB and X now indeed. It cheered me up no end to read only 8% of ppl world wide are on Twitter. Within than 8% there is a little air pocket where the Be Kind bullies preach to the converted.

Then there is a snapshot in the dark , like the Irish voting No to removing Mother from the Constitution. And everyone is like... ' how tf did that happen?'

Well, of course the Nazis were really really bad. Beyond the pale, really. Everybody knows that. And, yes, Godwin's Law and everything.

... It's just that the trans movement seems to share so many of those Nazi ideas, being anti-gay and pro outdated female stereotypes and so on ...

These days I use the term trans less and less. I prefer to go by the far more accurate phrase "men who pretend to be women". I find the change of language throws into relief the feminist objections eg "Yes men who pretend to be women have always existed but pretending to be a woman doesn't mean they should use women's spaces or be in women's sports"

I thought the whole point of JKRs post (apart from testing the Scottish hate crime bill), was to show up certain men who are taking advantage of the love and acceptance of trans people for their own personal benefit.

I heard from a policeman that most people don’t understand how much time and effort predators/perverts will go to achieve their sexual desires. If they find they can slip in under the umbrella of Be Kind to prey on women and girls, they will.

I like your idea @slug