Get men out of girls' sports and out of their changing rooms.

[ArabellaScott]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13266245/KIPP-Academy-Lynn-Massachusetts-transgender-athlete-rowing-harassment-suspended.html

''The male athlete was caught staring openly at one of the female athletes while she changed her clothes in the women’s locker room and remarked, "oooh t*tties!"' it read.
'When a female athlete nearby asked if it was the first time he had seen female breasts, the male responded, "uhh yeah" with a laugh. The male athlete was suspended for this incident.'
The report also claimed she 'caused many issues for the female athletes' on the team and they avoided using the locker room because of her.'

Those who have enabled this bullshit should be fucking ashamed of themselves.

I have a friend who is a trans woman, many years post transition and has had facial feminisation surgery, in a relationship with a man. I've only ever know her post transition. In fact I know 2 such transwomen.

Neither compete in female sports teams. But I have no objection to sharing the female toilets or a changing room with them. They can't rape as they don't have penises.

Do any posters feel this is a valid distinction?

WTAF. The world is going mad.

You can’t make penis/no penis the line because the surgery is barbaric and you risk coercing vulnerable people into an unnecessary penis amputation.

That makes sense @KellieJaysLapdog. I'd be upset for them if they were prevented from using women's facilities (which they have done for ivermectin 20 years) but I guess being comfortable with someone on an individual level is one thing, but there is the wider picture.

This - plus, any man can claim to have had the surgery whether he has or not.

How do you then challenge him? We are back to the ridiculous suggestion which TRAs keep talking about, but no GC person (as far as I am aware) has even considered because it is so intrusive and downright stupid - examining genitals.

We don't want to live in a society where this is even an option.

I am happy that you are comfortable with sharing spaces with such men, but many women, myself included, would not be
a) because they are male
and
b) because of the implications for other, non-surgically "amended" men taking advantage of it

Well it seems we have gone from 'it never happens' to 'it happens so rarely it should not effect policy' to 'that was not a real transwoman so does not count' to 'well men will continue to rape and try and access womens spaces whatever safeguarding you have in place so whats the point'.

Once again, all the authorities know exactly who the male in this scenario is....regardless of how he decided to identify.

Women and girls are pushed aside, told to be kind and inclusive, and 'take one for the team' while the scummy male pushes his way into places he shouldn't be, and which puts these girls at risk and makes them feel ridiculously uncomfortable.

They know he's a male, because absolutely no woman or girl would ever be given this sort of free rein...they'd never be supported to this extent and most definitely wouldn't be allowed to make the boys or men uncomfortable.

If she complained about her 'manly' feelings she'd be shut down immediately.

The only time a trans identifying woman gets in the news is if she gets pregnant !!!

How are we supposed to know if your male friends who are in the changing room with us still have penises or not? (Unless they get totally naked in front of us).

When you're a parent of an athlete it costs A LOT of money plus also time to volunteer, in my experience. I understand that it's hard to give something up but if my daughter was forced to share overnight with a boy I'd be bloody suing and they'd never see a penny of my money or a minute of my time again. Do they WANT their daughters to get pregnant? Because it's only a matter of time unless you're going to put them on birth control pills which can have serious side effects. Fuck's sake.

As an aside it seems like Australia and Scotland are vying to see who can 'be most TRAliban' - who will win the competition for abusing women and children the most? It's a close thing....

In Australia, 24 females withdrew from a club because they were scared to play against males, and the Australian eSafety Commissioner threatens to take action against anyone who mentions on social media that it is wrong that males are playing in the female competition.

https://reduxx.info/exclusive-women-drop-out-of-australian-football-division-after-five-trans-identified-males-dominate-womens-league-leave-female-players-injured/

It's just carte blanche for any man who wants an opportunity to physically or sexually assault women and girls, isn't it?

This.

It's nothing to do with sport or competition.

The physical advantages that men have means that any man can apply. The standard may be relative, from grassroots to elite, but men will always have the advantage over women.

It's horrific. It's way beyond sexism. It's using women like animals.

What kind of fucked up wanker do you have to be to have such a sense of entitlement and power over women that you force yourself into their changing room, stare at them naked, and then voice your glee that you're abusing them, for them all to hear.

This disgusting, cheating pervert has been led to believe that he's right. That women are just there for his pleasure.

He should be in jail, as should every single person who enabled him.

No. I don’t think it is a valid distinction. They are male and should respect the needs of female people. Even if it is not all female people who declare they need their spaces without male people. The fact that a male has had extreme body modification doesn’t make them female.

We know that there are male people who have had even that extreme body modification and still don’t enter the female toilets or changing rooms.

Good male people stay out so that we know which male people don’t respect us.

Even if there is no penis to rape a female with, there are significant body differences that can over power female people. Even a small male has more grip strength and punch power than an equivalent size female. It is not just about rape.

It is not just about attack either. No surgery or hormones can change a skeleton, so skeletal proportions are noticeable. Including the impact on gait. So, while facial feminisation might distract some women if it is good enough, many of those operations are not, those do not remove all male cues.

Also, female people have always and will always use female toilets for a lot more than just peeing. Some of those needs require cubicle doors to be open or happen in the public area around the basins. Why should any female person expecting to have privacy from any male gaze be subject to a male person’s presence because those male people insist on being there? Or because a small group of women who either have never thought about those women cleaning their clothes while half dressed or who know women did it but didn’t give a fuck about those women and girl’s needs because ‘they are fine with being seen by a strange male person while in that position’ told their mates or their brothers or their sons to just don’t worry about those women, you go right in.

I don’t think having someone’s cock chopped off or their face peeled of their skull and their bones shaved matters. And it would be cruel for any male person to think that they should do this to get access to somewhere where they simply should accept they don’t belong because female people have needs beyond ‘just peeing’ and male people should respect that.

No,because they're men.

No.

Sarah Baker castrated himself in prison. He's a violent thug with convictions for attempted murder, kidnap and other violent crimes. He recently went onstage at a Pride event and called for the audience to punch 'terfs' in the fucking face.

Having removed his genitals has no bearing on his women-hatred, or his risk.

What with Eunuch Gender now being a thing a male without a penis certainly cannot claim to be any closer to being female than a male with a penis, not even according to WPATH (World Professional Association for Transgender Health) themselves!

‘have a friend who is a trans woman, many years post transition and has had facial feminisation surgery, in a relationship with a man. I've only ever know her post transition. In fact I know 2 such transwomen. ‘

🤔so if they can ‘pass ‘ so well after many years….how do you know they are transwomen? Surely they didn’t tell you, because in their eyes they are ‘women’ , real women ( as India would assert quite loudly).

All the TW who pass totally, why do they never seem to appear in the wider public sphere? Just for a bit of reassurance and to show how all the silly old bigots have got it wrong.

I’m not saying that you don’t know these women, of course, I believe you; just that it is odd that so may other posters on similar threads seem to know such people personally.

@Allthegoodnamesarechosen one of the women told me when I was talking about HRT. She has been obviously taking hormones for many years.

The other was a woman I worked with. Men who had worked with her longer when referring to her (but not to her face) called her
A-MAN-da. Totally crass.

I think the conflict I have is I know these people as individuals in happy marriages, with jobs and hobbies. I readily see them as women though of course I (and they) know that biologically they aren't. They're living the lives that make them happy. Neither is an activist.

Surely they didn’t tell you, because in their eyes they are ‘women’ , real women ( as India would assert quite loudly)

Why "surely"? Not transwomen are reflected in India Willoughby.

All the TW who pass totally, why do they never seem to appear in the wider public sphere? Just for a bit of reassurance and to show how all the silly old bigots have got it wrong

Because they just want to live their lives happily and peacefully.

To be clear, I'm speaking only of the 2 transwomen I know personally.

That's fine, but rules need to apply to all men/males/transwomen equally. We can't have 'some rules for your lovely pals' and 'some rules for Sarah Jane Baker and other criminals'.

I do agree with you.

I'm just working through the tensions I have due to my friendships. I guess the best I can do on a personal level is to continue to be a supportive friend, as I am to all my friends.

Then those of us who are not in Australia should be singing this from the rooftops in support of the female athletes!

Of course, and I understand the difficulty.

The trouble is that there is a genuine clash of competing rights here - every time a male is allowed into women's spaces that means that some women - whether because of traumatic history, or religious observances, or even just preferences for privacy and dignity - are excluded.

Trans people should be able to live free of discrimination, of course. But that doesn't mean that they get women's stuff handed to them.

(sorry, a response to Goldengar!)

No. They’re still men, just men who’ve had surgery. If you ever had a physical conflict with one of them, they could kill you very easily.

Women’s spaces sports and trophies are for women. It isn’t an opt-in category for failed men.