Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman's hour 2nd April 2024 JKR's 'hate' thread

556 replies

WarriorN · 02/04/2024 10:08

First item is the Hate bill and JK's tweets - they did invite her on but haven't heard back yet

For women Scotland will be on too.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
RebelliousCow · 02/04/2024 20:52

As I've said before if you identified "with women", rather than "as a woman" you'd be far more respectful and consequently be far more trustworthy. But even then, when talking about public spaces, you cannot consent on behalf of all other users of that space; and there should not even be this kind of discussion. Men should use male facilities, and if not happy with those - campaign for other discrete facilities.

RebelliousCow · 02/04/2024 20:54

Those posters who try to wheedle and whine their way into women's spaces, using all sorts of justifications - are all bad actors as far as I'm concerned. Look at Eddie Izzard...his privilege and his entiteld narcissistic arrogance is something to behold

RebelliousCow · 02/04/2024 21:00

DadJoke · 02/04/2024 17:47

I agree with the EqA which allows trans women to use use toilets and other spaces associated with their gender identity with the exceptions provided in the EqA.

Gender identity is not a protected characteristic - and the law does not permit even those men with a GRC to use women's facilities. The misunderstanding that it does has arisen because of lack of clarity and intention in the original drafting of the law, which was written for an entirely different contingent of transsexuals, and in a very different set of circumstances.

Boiledbeetle · 02/04/2024 21:00

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/04/2024 20:32

Actually, a woman said this to me not long ago.

"Like just shut up and enjoy being rich!" were her exact words.

Bloody hell! I mean I know women can be the same as men in that respect, but they usually aren't quite so blunt about it!

Tinysoxxx · 02/04/2024 21:03

Snowypeaks · 02/04/2024 20:50

Yes. I think there is a danger that employers may feel that enclosed, self-contained unisex toilet cubicles are the "safe" or compromise option even where they do have plenty of space for separate single-sex blocks of traditional cubicles with a gap top and bottom and communal hand-washing area. Obviously, this is by far the best option for women for all sorts of reasons, but employers have been Stonewalled into thinking that they will be unlawfully discriminating against men who claim to be women if they provide them, and they are now getting the message that they are unlawfully discriminating if they don't provide them. So they may just go for the individual cubicles to be safe. Someone should tell them they may be discriminating against people with disabilities if they do!

I have tried! I spent ages filing out the toilet consultation but I am afraid it is so far along it’s done deal - they can forget about all the pesky problems with disabilities and women. Until it’s too late for some. Because it handily gets rid of the identity problems.

I don’t know how to rally troops or if it’s too late?

What maybe being highlighted is the news reports coming out of schools that self enclosed mix sex solutions aren’t working. Pupils are being assaulted in them, they can’t tell how many students are in them, being used for sex, taking drugs, and the smells and hygiene are worse as mops can’t be used as effectively. Teachers have raised safety issues about fire emergencies too - I remember quickly checking toilet blocks by looking for feet in the door gaps.

Justnot · 02/04/2024 21:04

Rebellious you took the words right out of my mouth:

I hate to break it to DJ but gender reassignment in the EA refers to transsexual people who have or are planning to change their physiology or something else (yep no idea what that means) to do with their sex - the protected characteristic he is spouting is a load of wishful thinking - it all needs updating and clarifying but as it stands what has happened is a massive TRA/MRA misinformation campaign

Brefugee · 02/04/2024 21:04

Someone should tell them they may be discriminating against people with disabilities if they do!

i think this also needs to be emphasised by people at all the DEI training that people are having to do now. "has there been an impact assessment in terms of accessibility?" and so on. Alongside everything else. Because it is becoming more clear that "inclusion" is ignoring people with disabilities and who need reasonable adjustments.

Underthinker · 02/04/2024 21:08

Boiledbeetle · 02/04/2024 20:27

I do find the she's so rich why does she give a fuck thing a very narcissistic male thought process.

If men can understand batman we can understand this.

pickledandpuzzled · 02/04/2024 21:16

DadJoke · 02/04/2024 11:07

Making lists of people with a protected charateristics who have committed crimes and inferring collective guilt to the entire group is a time-honoured technique used by people who want to stir up hatred against minority groups. Implying they are a danger to women and children is the icing on the cake. In every case, they imply that this time it's different, this time, the statistics they've cobbled together are correct, and those other people who've done the same thing with other protected groups are wrong.

If JKR was using this approach for black people, or gay people, all of you (I hope) would be up in arms against it. But no, this is your pet hate group, so you support it..

I don't agree with the bill as it stands, but it hasn't instilled in me the need to attack a minority group, or shame the entire group by naming criminals and others within that protected group whose behaviour I don't like.

I have no doubt JKR will not be arrested or charged. The bar for prosecution is pretty high, and she is untouchable.

I’m 14 pages late so I’m sure it’s been pointed out but I can’t let this one go. She hasn’t
This isn’t a list “… of people with a protected charateristics who have committed crimes“. This is a list of men who used their trans status to harm women- displaced or harassed using sexist insults or committed sex crimes.

I don’t give a fuck about anyone’s special status. I care about men abusing women in the many many ways they do- and that list points out the issue with some
men being given special privilege they use to abuse in special ways. No special privileges, ta.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/04/2024 21:26

Boiledbeetle · 02/04/2024 21:00

Bloody hell! I mean I know women can be the same as men in that respect, but they usually aren't quite so blunt about it!

This particular woman is an interesting one.

I'm fairly sure I convinced her that JK Rowling does actually have a point, but saying so out loud to anyone she knows would make her an instant social pariah.

BezMills · 02/04/2024 21:28

I skipped to the end. Shame JKR was too busy being a QUEEN on the twitx, hopefully in the next weeks she will appear.

Snowypeaks · 02/04/2024 21:49

Tinysoxxx · 02/04/2024 21:03

I have tried! I spent ages filing out the toilet consultation but I am afraid it is so far along it’s done deal - they can forget about all the pesky problems with disabilities and women. Until it’s too late for some. Because it handily gets rid of the identity problems.

I don’t know how to rally troops or if it’s too late?

What maybe being highlighted is the news reports coming out of schools that self enclosed mix sex solutions aren’t working. Pupils are being assaulted in them, they can’t tell how many students are in them, being used for sex, taking drugs, and the smells and hygiene are worse as mops can’t be used as effectively. Teachers have raised safety issues about fire emergencies too - I remember quickly checking toilet blocks by looking for feet in the door gaps.

I'm afraid I don't think anything less than legal action against a large employer will have any impact.

Waitwhat23 · 03/04/2024 00:47

DrBlackbird · 02/04/2024 17:36

Apart from how others point out this is a study on toilets, not rape relief centres, or sports, or prisons, or single sex wards in hospitals, nor short lists or awards etc etc etc, their own list of limitations (my italics) include;

Limitations of this study include issues inherent with the data source. For example, the data used to represent safety and privacy violations in public restrooms were police records of criminal incidents. While these records should have a relatively high level of reliability in their objective accuracy in recording the existence of such incidents, they fail to include any incidents that were not reported to local law enforcement. For example, it is estimated that only 30 to 35% of rapes and sexual assaults are reported to the police (Truman & Langton, 2014). Nevertheless, by assessing trends over time and using a matched pairs analysis, the authors sought to control for any issues related to unreported incidents. There is no reason to assume that incidents are more or less likely to be reported in a locality with a GIPANDO than in a matched locality.

The crime reports also were not recorded in a way that allows a reviewer to distinguish between incidents involving cisgender people and transgender people. Police departments generally do not distinguish between sex assigned at birth and gender identity. Therefore, there is no way to identify if there were any incidents that involved transgender people being attacked in public restrooms because of their externally perceived gender. A 2008 survey of 93 transgender people in the Washington, DC metropolitan area found that 9% reported experiencing physical assault in a public restroom (Herman, 2013). There was also no way to identify if there were incidents of transgender people or people pretending to be transgender accessing restrooms with intent to harm others. Among the incidents that had notes attached providing more detail, there was no evidence of transgender people being either victims or perpetrators of crimes or of people pretending to be transgender in order to harm others in public restrooms.

It is also important to note that violent and other privacy-related crimes in public restrooms, locker rooms, and changing rooms are exceedingly rare. As a point of comparison, our findings indicated that reports of privacy or safety violations in these public spaces occurred annually at most at a rate of 4.5 per 100,000 population in the jurisdictions we studied; in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts in 2015, violent crimes were reported at a rate of 390.1 per 100,000 population, and rapes were reported at a rate of 32.6 per 100,000 (Federal Bureau of Investigation, 2016). While this may be comforting to those who have safety and privacy related concerns about those spaces, the rarity of such incidents may act as a limitation to this analysis. Nevertheless, the matched pairs design was used intentionally to compensate for limited data.
The data were requested from 15 different police departments of different sizes and geographies. Each had its own individual record keeping system, policy for responding to public records requests, and records clerks. Some departments responded by sending extra data and allowing the researchers to search through to find the relevant incidents, while others sent tables with dates and criminal codes. Some appeared to have the ability to search electronically while others had to search manually. Therefore, we are unable to determine whether every single search was equally thorough and turned up every single incident that matched the researchers’ search criteria. For example, the locality that showed the highest number of restroom incidents was the locality in which the police department sent their full criminal logs to the researchers and allowed the researchers to review the records to find incidents that met their search criteria. The higher number of incidents might be more likely to indicate that the researchers performed a more detailed and exhaustive search than the other searches performed within police departments, rather than that there were actually more incidents in that locality. That locality was a matched pair locality, so this may have contributed to the greater number of incidents reported in matched pair localities, as compared to GIPANDO localities. However, the difference-in-difference approach would account for any such bias because we do not rely on the numbers of individual incidents reported for the analyses, but instead rely on the differences within jurisdictions before and after passage of GIPANDOs. We can assume that data collection efforts were consistent within each jurisdiction, and therefore, our calculations produce differences that are comparable across jurisdictions.

Finally, though all of the requests were worded and followed up upon in the same manner, the depth of the results may have varied. Three localities were unable to provide complete incident data, which may decrease the internal validity of the current study. Cases where there was missing data from a matched locality led to the exclusion of the locality with a GIPANDO from the analysis because of the lack of comparable data, which may impact the external validity of the current study.

Ooh, sorry - I missed this reply. Thank you DrBlackbird!

FrancescaContini · 03/04/2024 08:54

Waitwhat23 · 02/04/2024 16:27

Aha....

Thank you for sharing this. It brought a tear to my eye.

FrancescaContini · 03/04/2024 08:55

(The “wait…n wait…n wait…” poem)

WarriorN · 03/04/2024 09:24

Catching up on thread:

we all know that gender critical people think trans women are men, and that they wish to be free to say that. In the same way, many churches preach in their churches that gay sex is always a sin. They can do so, and whether it's hate speech depends on context.

@DadJoke your false analogies are so weak it's genuinely hilarious.

Women know that TW are men, and that important to remember as 1/ few get surgery and 2/ the rates of sexual assaults against women and girls are statistically higher amongst men who identify as women than men who don't.

OP posts:
Boombatty · 03/04/2024 09:29

The desperation to paint us as homophobes is clear isn't it? Completely false analogies. And ironic when you support gender ideology which is inherently homophobic itself. The snake is eating its own tail but doesn't realise.

MouseMinge · 03/04/2024 09:33

Yes, we don't think, we know. And we know because it's biological reality. A man who wants to live "as" a woman can, or he can live what he thinks it is to be a woman, but he'll still be a man and should have no access to women's sex based rights because he isn't a woman.

Beliefs are not reality.

DrBlackbird · 03/04/2024 09:35

Waitwhat23 · 03/04/2024 00:47

Ooh, sorry - I missed this reply. Thank you DrBlackbird!

I didn’t even bother with the list of other publications by the same authors that clearly identify a particular bias with their research. Definitely not the gotcha a particularly tiresome poster thought it was.

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 10:10

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 02/04/2024 17:59

We do not exclude all people with a protected characteristic based the existence of bad actors with that characteristic. We don't seek to ban all asylum seekers because some commit crimes, unless we are Tommy Robinson.

But the UK is not a designated place for non-asylum seekers only. Whereas a women-only space is a space for women only. Do you not see the difference?

And women’s toilets are not designated places for gender critical women - trans women have a right to be there. You just don’t want them to be.

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 10:16

@DrBlackbird you will have no problem whatsoever pointing out statistical evidence that changing laws around toilets and RCCs changes crime levels directed towards women.

Waitwhat23 · 03/04/2024 10:26

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 10:10

And women’s toilets are not designated places for gender critical women - trans women have a right to be there. You just don’t want them to be.

Here comes the harmony group....

(...A couple of minutes for them to get into position - there's a bit of whisperered negotiation as they jostle into place....)

ahem

'MALE!'

Boiledbeetle · 03/04/2024 10:26

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 10:10

And women’s toilets are not designated places for gender critical women - trans women have a right to be there. You just don’t want them to be.

I'll tell you what women's toilets aren't a designated place for

MEN

It's men I don't want in women only spaces regardless of how they think of themselves.

ResisterRex · 03/04/2024 10:26

And women’s toilets are not designated places for gender critical women - trans women have a right to be there. You just don’t want them to be

Women's toilets are for natal females. That includes trans-identified females. It excludes males, regardless of their special feelings or spinny skirts. HTH.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 03/04/2024 10:27

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 10:10

And women’s toilets are not designated places for gender critical women - trans women have a right to be there. You just don’t want them to be.

So you keep saying.

You do get that this means that Isla Bryson and Katie Dolatowski have a right to be in any women's spaces they like, right?