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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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JKR exposing Scottish hate crime laws for what they are

1000 replies

LargeSquareRock · 01/04/2024 12:14

https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1774747068944265615?s=61&t=NHDSDk1MaF98_GOtcuLi0Q

OP posts:
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91
SerendipityJane · 03/04/2024 09:50

turbonerd · 03/04/2024 09:47

The whole law is extremely sinister.
Bless Jonathan Pie too, for his excellent piece.

Why would Scotland walk right back into East-Germany anno 1970 and snuggle down there? What’s this extremely totalitarian way of thinking doing getting a law?

Oh, wait.

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.

BackToLurk · 03/04/2024 09:52

ErrolTheDragon · 03/04/2024 09:34

I hadn't noticed. Shit... that's quite sinister.
Hm, inclined to think that may be more (or at least double whammy) of making this a blasphemy law. Protecting religion rather than 'religion or belief' sounds like privileging religious people and discrimination against atheists/anyone without an actual religious affiliation.

I'd like to see a high profile non-religious person or two following JKRs example to test this.

It's probably worth noting that hate crime legislation is not the same as EA 2010. The characteristics relating to hate crime in English law are :-
Race
Religion
Disability
Sexual orientation
Transgender identity

Scotland opted to add age and & variations in sex characteristics. Amusingly though Police Scotland state that religion and belief are covered by the law, which they don't appear to be. Gives you confidence that they know what they are doing

https://www.scotland.police.uk/advice-and-information/hate-crime/what-is-hate-crime/

What is hate crime? - Police Scotland

What is hate crime?

https://www.scotland.police.uk/advice-and-information/hate-crime/what-is-hate-crime

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 03/04/2024 10:07

BackToLurk · 03/04/2024 09:52

It's probably worth noting that hate crime legislation is not the same as EA 2010. The characteristics relating to hate crime in English law are :-
Race
Religion
Disability
Sexual orientation
Transgender identity

Scotland opted to add age and & variations in sex characteristics. Amusingly though Police Scotland state that religion and belief are covered by the law, which they don't appear to be. Gives you confidence that they know what they are doing

https://www.scotland.police.uk/advice-and-information/hate-crime/what-is-hate-crime/

The word "belief" is specifically omitted.

Presumably because gender critical feminism is a protected belief, not a religion.

BackToLurk · 03/04/2024 10:15

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 03/04/2024 10:07

The word "belief" is specifically omitted.

Presumably because gender critical feminism is a protected belief, not a religion.

It isn't 'specifically omitted', the characteristic hasn't been narrowed. The Equality Act and hate crime legislation are 2 separate pieces of legislation. So for example 'gender reassignment' is the PC in EA2010 'gender identity' is protected under hate crime legislation. Belief has never been covered by hate crime legislation. It isn't in England. Although as I said, and shown in the link, Police Scotland's information page claim belief is included. The difference in PCs is one of the things that can demonstrate that transpeople are actually afforded more protection in law than some other groups, particularly women.

Boiledbeetle · 03/04/2024 10:15

So, on a different thread about our Queen NitroNine wrote:

With apologies to, er, JKR &, um, anyone who happens to have eyes:

Rowling is our Queen,
Rowling is our Queen,
She didn't let the Bad Law win
Rowling is our Queen.

Rowling thinks of ev’rything,
Her plans are all-encompassing,
That's why FWR all sing:
Rowling is our Queen.

Having fed it into the AI it has come up with the following

https://app.suno.ai/song/ebe15fd4-5654-4e2e-98db-e781e6a819c7

QUEEN | Suno

Female Rousing marching song song. Listen and make your own with Suno.

https://app.suno.ai/song/ebe15fd4-5654-4e2e-98db-e781e6a819c7

SerendipityJane · 03/04/2024 10:25

Presumably because gender critical feminism is a protected belief, not a religion.

What makes a madey uppy thing a religion rather than a belief ? We know it's now a simple numbers game otherwise pastafarianism would have counted ?

DoYouSmokePaul · 03/04/2024 10:28

Boiledbeetle · 03/04/2024 10:15

So, on a different thread about our Queen NitroNine wrote:

With apologies to, er, JKR &, um, anyone who happens to have eyes:

Rowling is our Queen,
Rowling is our Queen,
She didn't let the Bad Law win
Rowling is our Queen.

Rowling thinks of ev’rything,
Her plans are all-encompassing,
That's why FWR all sing:
Rowling is our Queen.

Having fed it into the AI it has come up with the following

https://app.suno.ai/song/ebe15fd4-5654-4e2e-98db-e781e6a819c7

I love this! It reminds me a bit of that Hanging Tree song from Hunger Games. It has a witchy vibe that I love.

I wish Joanne was my BFF.

RedToothBrush · 03/04/2024 10:28

I think its also worth stressing that one of the key points in English law (and Scottish law too I think) is the point that we have a massive emphasis on the concept of 'in the public interest'.

It can be used as a defence on all matters relating to public debate.

I personally DON'T think JKR is particularly clever in the sense that she had a massive plan about defying this Act. She just understood this concept and that she would be able to easily make a case on this basis - and IW is definitely a tool (pun intended) to aiding this case. She understand just how valued and ingrained that the concept of public interest is to British Law.

It is, however, expensive to use an 'in the public interest' defence. Usually the people who use it are the British media...

In making very loud noises about in the public interest, JKR enlists/conscripts the media on the subject - the media CANNOT standby and allow it to pass without comment because it has massive implications for that.

Datun · 03/04/2024 10:29

BackToLurk · 03/04/2024 10:15

It isn't 'specifically omitted', the characteristic hasn't been narrowed. The Equality Act and hate crime legislation are 2 separate pieces of legislation. So for example 'gender reassignment' is the PC in EA2010 'gender identity' is protected under hate crime legislation. Belief has never been covered by hate crime legislation. It isn't in England. Although as I said, and shown in the link, Police Scotland's information page claim belief is included. The difference in PCs is one of the things that can demonstrate that transpeople are actually afforded more protection in law than some other groups, particularly women.

Thanks Back

Does the hate crime legislation explain what gender identity IS? Is there a description?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 03/04/2024 10:31

SerendipityJane · 03/04/2024 10:25

Presumably because gender critical feminism is a protected belief, not a religion.

What makes a madey uppy thing a religion rather than a belief ? We know it's now a simple numbers game otherwise pastafarianism would have counted ?

Sorry, what is the madey uppy thing you are referring to?

SerendipityJane · 03/04/2024 10:36

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 03/04/2024 10:31

Sorry, what is the madey uppy thing you are referring to?

Religion. All religions are made up.

SerendipityJane · 03/04/2024 10:38

Meanwhile, this tickled me

Amid reports that more than 3,000 complaints have been received so far, the minister also revealed a false complaint had been made in her name.

Ms Brown said she had been “surprised” to receive a call from Police Scotland about a complaint she was said to have made on Monday, the day the legislation came into force.
Speaking on BBC Radio Scotland’s Good Morning Scotland programme on Wednesday, she said: “Obviously this was a fake complaint that someone had done anonymously in my name and gave my office number.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/jk-rowling-minister-police-scotland-ally-mccoist-community-b2522560.html

Minister refuses to say whether JK Rowling comments were non-crime hate incident

Community safety minister Siobhian Brown said such a decision is a matter for Police Scotland.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/jk-rowling-minister-police-scotland-ally-mccoist-community-b2522560.html

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 03/04/2024 10:40

SerendipityJane · 03/04/2024 10:36

Religion. All religions are made up.

Oh I see. Well I guess the legislation would protect beliefs which are officially recognised as a religion. Probably characterised by things like having religious texts, places of worship, rituals etc.

Believing that humans can't change sex probably falls short of that in many ways.

KellieJaysLapdog · 03/04/2024 10:42

A group of lesbian feminists formed a church in the US - I wonder if we can join them from here?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2018/08/03/lesbians-want-a-church-of-their-own-and-irs-approves/

Chersfrozenface · 03/04/2024 10:43

SerendipityJane · 03/04/2024 10:38

Meanwhile, this tickled me

Amid reports that more than 3,000 complaints have been received so far, the minister also revealed a false complaint had been made in her name.

Ms Brown said she had been “surprised” to receive a call from Police Scotland about a complaint she was said to have made on Monday, the day the legislation came into force.
Speaking on BBC Radio Scotland’s Good Morning Scotland programme on Wednesday, she said: “Obviously this was a fake complaint that someone had done anonymously in my name and gave my office number.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/jk-rowling-minister-police-scotland-ally-mccoist-community-b2522560.html

Well, who would have thought it, eh?

A system where anyone, including third parties, can make a complaint with no checks on their identity, and someone used it to prank a minister in the government responsible for creating said system.

I am truly astonished.

KellieJaysLapdog · 03/04/2024 10:45

.

JKR exposing Scottish hate crime laws for what they are
JKR exposing Scottish hate crime laws for what they are
Datun · 03/04/2024 10:49

In making very loud noises about in the public interest, JKR enlists/conscripts the media on the subject - the media CANNOT standby and allow it to pass without comment because it has massive implications for that.

I didn't know that.

The podcast about her, The Witch Trials of J. K. Rowling was very interesting. Even before this all started, she was an apparently, one of the most, if not the most banned author in history, on the grounds of promoting witchcraft, or something.

And she was unprepared for her influence and how profound it became. And felt incredibly responsible for how youngsters were viewing her. She would go onto fan sites, anonymously, and listen to what they were saying and interact. She became friends with quite a few of them.

I should imagine her legal team is huge, and diverse. It will have to deal with so many different aspects of law.

So I can easily imagine them giving her all the possible ways she could deal with this, including, as you say, the defence of in the public interest, in order to pull the media along with her.

Her trajectory so far has been fairly faultless. Once she decided to go for it, she picked her words incredibly carefully. I don't think there's been a single misstep.

And she's now taking on an entire government.

As an addendum to her story The Witch Trials of J K Rowling, taking on the Scottish government seems like a strangely inevitable part of that journey.

I don't think I've ever anticipated the next chapter more.

As stories go, it's an absolute page turner.

Chersfrozenface · 03/04/2024 10:50

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 03/04/2024 10:40

Oh I see. Well I guess the legislation would protect beliefs which are officially recognised as a religion. Probably characterised by things like having religious texts, places of worship, rituals etc.

Believing that humans can't change sex probably falls short of that in many ways.

There is no universal definition of religion under English law.

Interesting article here.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/ecclesiastical-law-journal/article/clarifying-the-definition-of-religion-under-english-law-the-need-for-a-universal-definition/BCD3B0A35753EACC5DCFFF7E6AAE8F90#article-tab

BackToLurk · 03/04/2024 11:00

Datun · 03/04/2024 10:29

Thanks Back

Does the hate crime legislation explain what gender identity IS? Is there a description?

Well now you're just being silly. 😂

Hate crime legislation in England & Wales in relation to transgender people comes from Section 66 of the Sentencing Act. This repeats some of the language of EA2010 'references to being transgender include references to being transsexual, or undergoing, proposing to undergo or having undergone a process or part of a process of gender reassignment'

The Scottish Act has its own language

(a)a female-to-male transgender (whatever that means) person,

(b)a male-to-female transgender person,

(c)a non-binary person,

(d)a person who cross-dresses,

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2020/17/section/66?view=plain#:~:text=66%20Hostility%20%281%29%20This%20section%20applies%20where%20a,transgender%20identity.%20This%20is%20subject%20to%20subsection%20%283%29.

Sentencing Act 2020

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2020/17/section/66?view=plain#:~:text=66%20Hostility%20%281%29%20This%20section%20applies%20where%20a,transgender%20identity.%20This%20is%20subject%20to%20subsection%20%283%29.

PurpleSparkledPixie · 03/04/2024 11:01

Thanks @KellieJaysLapdog . It appears you don't actually need to be a lesbian to join that church, just the women and girls criteria Easter Grin

RedToothBrush · 03/04/2024 11:02

Datun · 03/04/2024 10:49

In making very loud noises about in the public interest, JKR enlists/conscripts the media on the subject - the media CANNOT standby and allow it to pass without comment because it has massive implications for that.

I didn't know that.

The podcast about her, The Witch Trials of J. K. Rowling was very interesting. Even before this all started, she was an apparently, one of the most, if not the most banned author in history, on the grounds of promoting witchcraft, or something.

And she was unprepared for her influence and how profound it became. And felt incredibly responsible for how youngsters were viewing her. She would go onto fan sites, anonymously, and listen to what they were saying and interact. She became friends with quite a few of them.

I should imagine her legal team is huge, and diverse. It will have to deal with so many different aspects of law.

So I can easily imagine them giving her all the possible ways she could deal with this, including, as you say, the defence of in the public interest, in order to pull the media along with her.

Her trajectory so far has been fairly faultless. Once she decided to go for it, she picked her words incredibly carefully. I don't think there's been a single misstep.

And she's now taking on an entire government.

As an addendum to her story The Witch Trials of J K Rowling, taking on the Scottish government seems like a strangely inevitable part of that journey.

I don't think I've ever anticipated the next chapter more.

As stories go, it's an absolute page turner.

Edited

Imagine someone is prosecuted under hate crime laws and it ends up setting a precedent in some way. This potentially inhibits the media to use a public interest defence.

Basically its the principle that stops the power of the state being too overbearing and authoritarian. The purpose of the media is to hold the power of the state to account and within a liberal society thats the role of free speech - to allow for whistleblowing against the state (or powerful individuals or organisations who abuse their position of power).

Any lawyer worth their salt would know this as its one of the very basic building blocks of English (or British) law. As would most journalists of any callibre.

What is shocking is precisely the number of journalists (hello BBC I'm looking at you most here though you are not the biggest offender on this) who don't understand this tennant of how liberal democracies are supposed to work and the role of the media in this.

I did a degree in this kind of stuff but I know I touched on this at GCSE level (I didn't do media at A Level). It definitely formed part of my understanding of history too.

There are a LOT of people with a LOT of questions to answer on these principles in my opinion.

BackToLurk · 03/04/2024 11:02

The Scottish act defines the characteristic

(a)religious belief or lack of religious belief,

(b)membership of or adherence to a church or religious organisation,

(c)support for the culture or traditions of a church or religious organisation,

(d)participation in activities associated with such a culture or such traditions.

FrancescaContini · 03/04/2024 11:04

Datun · 03/04/2024 10:29

Thanks Back

Does the hate crime legislation explain what gender identity IS? Is there a description?

Nobody can give an explanation of it that would make sense in legal terms. Or indeed in any terms/language. Something about “feelings” 🤔

SerendipityJane · 03/04/2024 11:07

Oh I see. Well I guess the legislation would protect beliefs which are officially recognised as a religion. Probably characterised by things like having religious texts, places of worship, rituals etc.

So why isn't Jedi a religion ?

By all means, let's have "state approved religions". At least there would be some honesty about the charade.

However the starting point is that all religions are madey uppy. Any attempt to live otherwise is going to end in tears, if not centuries of senseless violence, persecution and oppression,.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 03/04/2024 11:07

Datun · 03/04/2024 10:49

In making very loud noises about in the public interest, JKR enlists/conscripts the media on the subject - the media CANNOT standby and allow it to pass without comment because it has massive implications for that.

I didn't know that.

The podcast about her, The Witch Trials of J. K. Rowling was very interesting. Even before this all started, she was an apparently, one of the most, if not the most banned author in history, on the grounds of promoting witchcraft, or something.

And she was unprepared for her influence and how profound it became. And felt incredibly responsible for how youngsters were viewing her. She would go onto fan sites, anonymously, and listen to what they were saying and interact. She became friends with quite a few of them.

I should imagine her legal team is huge, and diverse. It will have to deal with so many different aspects of law.

So I can easily imagine them giving her all the possible ways she could deal with this, including, as you say, the defence of in the public interest, in order to pull the media along with her.

Her trajectory so far has been fairly faultless. Once she decided to go for it, she picked her words incredibly carefully. I don't think there's been a single misstep.

And she's now taking on an entire government.

As an addendum to her story The Witch Trials of J K Rowling, taking on the Scottish government seems like a strangely inevitable part of that journey.

I don't think I've ever anticipated the next chapter more.

As stories go, it's an absolute page turner.

Edited

I binge listened to that podcast, and I think I will probably have to listen to it a second time.

I actually found the first two episodes the most interesting, because they covered a lot of material and perspectives I was previously unaware of, whereas I am now very familiar with her stance on women's rights vs trans rights, as well as the various opposing viewpoints.

I thought it was very clever the way those first two episodes, without really focusing directly on the trans debate, lay the foundations for the curious listener to ask themselves some difficult questions later on.

So for example, in the first episode about the censorship of the Harry Potter books, there were two standout points for me. One was that the attorney who was hired by the parents who wanted the books banned fought that litigation without ever having read the books. He later read them, decided for himself that they were actually very good books and not at all promoting witchcraft or an evil agenda, and was glad that he had lost that case. Credit to him where it's due for admitting that he was wrong, but I still can't believe he took that case all the way to court without having even read the books. Especially since at the time only the first few books had been published, so it wouldn't have taken him more than a few days to read them. I think there's a strong parallel here with the people who denounce her for her transphobic views without actually having taken the time to read what she has said about the subject and decide for themselves. The other important point is that the people who were trying to have her books banned in the late 1990s are the very same people she is now being accused of being in league with. Religious conservatives. How likely is it, really, that JK Rowling is capable of being radicalised by the same people who tried and failed to have her cancelled 25 years ago for writing a book for children about witches and wizards?

Then in the second episode, about the early fandoms, I thought there was a lot of interesting content which goes some way towards explaining why the LGBTQ community is so disappointed in her. It explains that a lot of the most passionate Harry Potter fans in the early days were children who were abused at home or bullied at school and basically had very miserable childhoods, and many of whom grew up believing that they were different and didn't fit in, and later became gay or trans adults. It's not difficult to see why those people particularly identified with a series of books about a boy who was mistreated for his whole childhood until one day someone came along and told him he was special and whisked him off to a magical world where he was a hero who ended up saving the world for a second time. A lot of those kids saw themselves in Harry Potter, and appreciated the strong anti-bullying message in the books as well as the overall theme of good triumphing over evil. And they then "met" each other in these online chat rooms where they bonded with loads of other very similar kids and built a community together where they constructed a huge part of their own identities around these books. Then, years later, JK Rowling, their heroine, starts saying things about trans issues, which make her millennial LGBTQ fan base feel that she has completely invalidated their personal identities. That must have been incredibly painful for them. But at the same time, in the episode she alludes to the fact that she never expected or wanted to be put on a pedestal by these people simply for having written a series of books that they loved. When you are put on a pedestal like that you have a long way to fall. And frankly, the fact that they love her books shouldn't mean that she can no longer express her own opinions for fear of upsetting people who love her books but disagree with her opinions.

Anyway, this post was very long but hopefully I've sparked some interest in this podcast, which is really very, very good.

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