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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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11
LoobiJee · 28/03/2024 09:26

BackToLurk · 28/03/2024 08:05

Presumably the good judge is under the impression that transwomen like ‘her’ are routinely being paid less because employers think they are actually women. As oppose to the evidence of our eyes which suggests transwomen are disproportionately in higher paid roles because employers think they are really men.

McCloud, who transitioned in the late 1990s and subsequently changed her legal sex under the 2004 Gender Recognition Act,

Victoria McCloud, a senior civil judge who became the youngest person appointed as master of the high court in 2010,

McCloud was age 40 when appointed master of the high court. Not much evidence of McCloud’s career being affected by discrimination, at that point at least.

Although the article doesn’t specify the date on which McCloud obtained a GRC. Could have been after 2010. Nor does it specify what transitioning in the late 1990s involved in practice.

OP posts:
Brefugee · 28/03/2024 09:36

“This would mean in practice that women like her [with a gender recognition certificate] would lose rights to equal pay with men”

i do not understand this. Either they are seen as women in which case equal pay is enshrined in law (or law has to admit that women get paid less...) or they are men and thus should be paid the same as men. Where is the question there? Transwomen cannot have fewer rights than men/women because we all have the same bloody rights. Even if we don't actually see them in reality.

BackToLurk · 28/03/2024 09:47

ArabellaScott · 28/03/2024 08:29

If McCloud were successful and 'sex' was not ever allowed to be tied to biological sex, then transmen would lose all maternity protections.

It really does show up which sex is more in need of legal protection, very starkly.

McCloud wants to do this for ego and validation.

I think they'd still be protected under the PC of pregnancy & maternity, however if - as we know happens - an employer discriminates against them because they recognise them as female (e.g. don't employ them in the first place because of their perceived fertility) they wouldn't be protected. But as ever this is about transwomen

LoobiJee · 28/03/2024 10:05

JoanOgden · 28/03/2024 08:32

“This would mean in practice that women like her [with a gender recognition certificate] would lose rights to equal pay with men”

Equal pay is really complicated - I think it's just men v women, so impossible to claim that it reflects gender reassignment discrimination.

The EHRC guidance is here: https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/guidance/equal-pay

The whole article, as per usual, is completely one sided, and misleading by omission. It entirely ignores the implications for women of the For Women Scotland appeal.

The article’s description:

“For Women Scotland is challenging whether Scottish government legislation aimed at improving gender balance on public boards should include transgender women.”

What an accurate and unbiased description would say:

“For Women Scotland is challenging whether Scottish government legislation aimed at improving female under-representation on public boards should include males with a GRC in the definition of women.”

There’s no effort by the Guardian to understand or portray the women’s rights aspect at all.

McCloud’s “friend”’s one-sided description:

A friend of hers said: “This would mean in practice that women like her [with a gender recognition certificate] would lose rights to equal pay with men and experience restricted rights to services or moves to exclude her from spaces such as women’s lavatories.”

What an unbiased and accurate description of the FWS appeal would say:

“This would mean in practice that women who are female would have their rights to equal pay with men who are male protected, as the pay of males with a GRC would be included with the pay of males without a GRC, for equal pay comparison purposes”.

And also

A friend of hers said: “This would mean in practice that women like her [with a gender recognition certificate] would lose rights to equal pay with men and experience restricted rights to services or moves to exclude her from spaces such as women’s lavatories.”

What an unbiased and accurate description of FWS appeal would say:

“This would mean in practice that women who are female would retain their rights to single-sex female-only services and spaces such as women’s lavatories.”

No one expects McCloud’s “friend” to present anything other than McCloud’s view, but the journalist / columnist/ reporter could have asked LWS for their position.

OP posts:
LoobiJee · 28/03/2024 10:22

I’ve just noticed what the caption under the photo says.

is concerned that a successful appeal might reverse her birth certificate.”

That can’t be an accurate representation of the FWS appeal, surely?

Isn’t that appeal focused on whether individuals with a GRC which awards them a legal sex of female should be included in the definition of “women” in every and all circumstances? A successful appeal wouldn’t change the fact that those individuals have a GRC, it would change one of the effects of having a GRC.

I havent been following the case so I may have missed something.

OP posts:
SinnerBoy · 28/03/2024 10:24

LoobiJee · Today 07:06

“Last month McCloud, 54, announced that she was resigning from the bench in April after 14 years as a full-time judge, citing the toxic climate towards transgender individuals in the UK.”

I thought the reason was McCloud’s lack of impartiality / inappropriate social media posts but may be getting confused with another case.

No, you're correct; I read the article and copied the same text, to make the same point. And that the Gruinard is lying about it.

BetsyM00 · 28/03/2024 10:24

Never fails to amaze me that so many, including High Court judges it seems, misunderstand what an appeal is about. It is not about personal testimony and threats to leave the country if you don't get your own way. I don't believe FWS has ever submitted stories from women about how the law personally impacts them. It is an appeal purely on legal points and the correct interpretation of the Act. If McCloud doesn't have any new legal points to make over and above the case presented by the Scottish Government then permission to intervene shouldn't be granted.

SinnerBoy · 28/03/2024 10:35

Has the person got any legal right at all, to interfere and try to use them's ideology to influence the outcome?

ArabellaScott · 28/03/2024 10:57

BackToLurk · 28/03/2024 09:47

I think they'd still be protected under the PC of pregnancy & maternity, however if - as we know happens - an employer discriminates against them because they recognise them as female (e.g. don't employ them in the first place because of their perceived fertility) they wouldn't be protected. But as ever this is about transwomen

Well, this was one of the issues the EHRC raised. They said that the government needed to clarify it and passed the buck.

CactusMactus · 28/03/2024 11:21

I'm confused. He wants to be treated like a woman in all aspect - except pay? When he wants to be treated like a man?

I didn't know that was an option!

WeeBisom · 28/03/2024 11:51

Normally interveners in cases are NGOs or charities or government agencies (like the charity commission) who have real legal expertise in the area under appeal. It would be really odd if a random person was allowed to intervene. I can’t see how it would be anything other than a random biased testimony, in which case surely there should be women witnesses as well? But that’s not what the case is about … it’s solely about the legal issues.

I don’t even think that as a master , master mcCloud is especially qualified to talk about this case. It’s not like it’s a legal speciality.

DadJoke · 28/03/2024 12:03

ArabellaScott · 28/03/2024 07:57

Yeah that makes no sense at all.

Pension perhaps?

The concerns the EHRC had were that transmen would lose maternity rights.

Because sometimes trans women are paid less on account of being women, not on account of being transgender. If you have a company where them women (including trans women) are paid less, the trans women are being paid less because of sexism, not transphobia.

DadJoke · 28/03/2024 12:04

It's good in these court cases, that a transgender expert in the matters is allowed to express a view. Most of the organisations campaign against transgender people (unsuprisingly) don't.

SaffronSpice · 28/03/2024 12:07

BetsyM00 · 28/03/2024 10:24

Never fails to amaze me that so many, including High Court judges it seems, misunderstand what an appeal is about. It is not about personal testimony and threats to leave the country if you don't get your own way. I don't believe FWS has ever submitted stories from women about how the law personally impacts them. It is an appeal purely on legal points and the correct interpretation of the Act. If McCloud doesn't have any new legal points to make over and above the case presented by the Scottish Government then permission to intervene shouldn't be granted.

But isn’t it Good Law Practice who think they have the legal points and this judge is their client?

BackToLurk · 28/03/2024 12:07

DadJoke · 28/03/2024 12:03

Because sometimes trans women are paid less on account of being women, not on account of being transgender. If you have a company where them women (including trans women) are paid less, the trans women are being paid less because of sexism, not transphobia.

As someone mentioned upthread this would be covered by perceptive discrimination

Imnobody4 · 28/03/2024 12:25

Just as an aside Sarah Phillimore has shared results on complaint against her misgendering.
https://twitter.com/SVPhillimore/status/1772713519399440700?t=VYXBuB-_RpgGyB0d-sN2YA&s=19

A very interesting dissonance is brewing. My regulator confirms it is not a regulatory matter if I refer to male persons as ‘he’, noting that Article 10 requires a high degree of protection.

And yet @policescotland will think differently?

We shall see. One might think we all have better things to be doing.

https://twitter.com/SVPhillimore/status/1772713519399440700?s=19&t=VYXBuB-_RpgGyB0d-sN2YA

BeBraveLittlePenguin · 28/03/2024 12:27

DadJoke · 28/03/2024 12:03

Because sometimes trans women are paid less on account of being women, not on account of being transgender. If you have a company where them women (including trans women) are paid less, the trans women are being paid less because of sexism, not transphobia.

But imagine how affirming!

HermioneWeasley · 28/03/2024 12:28

“No, no, women have no right to define themselves to protect their rights because then it would exclude ME!”

tough shit

BackToLurk · 28/03/2024 12:42

BeBraveLittlePenguin · 28/03/2024 12:27

But imagine how affirming!

And at least they won’t be subject to the terrible misgendering that’s apparently so prolific everyone needs pronoun badges.

SaffronSpice · 28/03/2024 12:43

Mochudubh · 28/03/2024 12:19

Surely that is the whole point of joining clubs like the Garrick? To create bias to support your selection?

ArabellaScott · 28/03/2024 12:47

I did think that McCloud seems not to be upholding the impartiality that judges are obliged to.

Joanna Cherry KC also questions it:

'This raises serious questions over judicial impartiality. The judge in question is reported to be resigning as a full-timer “in April”, the implication being that they will continue to sit as a part-timer.'

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1773272584596893729

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1773272584596893729

ArabellaScott · 28/03/2024 12:50

https://www.judiciary.uk/about-the-judiciary/our-justice-system/three-is/

'When carrying out their judicial function judges must be free of any improper influence, such as pressure by individual litigants, commercial interests, the media, politicians, and their own self-interest. They must not allow potential public or media responses to skew their decision-making.'

'Judges strive to ensure that their conduct, both in and out of court, maintains and enhances the confidence of the public, the legal profession and litigants, in their personal impartiality and that of the judiciary.It follows that judges should, so far as is reasonable, avoid extra-judicial activities that could result in reasonable apprehension of bias or would result in a conflict of interest. This may involve refraining from sitting in a case where they have a close family relationship with a litigant or avoiding involvement with a political party, in such a way as to give the appearance of political bias. They should also avoid taking part in public demonstrations which might diminish their authority as a judge or create a perception of bias in subsequent cases.'

'...they must accept that the nature of their office exposes them to considerable scrutiny and puts constraints on their behaviour which other people may not experience. They should avoid situations which might reasonably lower respect for their judicial office or might cast doubt upon their impartiality as judges. They must also avoid situations which might expose them to charges of hypocrisy by reason of things done in their private life.'

Three Is: Independence, Impartiality and Integrity - Courts and Tribunals Judiciary

The three key values which are central to the role of judicial office holders (JOHs) in England and Wales are: The core principles JOHs are required to adhere to these core principles both inside and outside the courtroom. These form part of the Bangal...

https://www.judiciary.uk/about-the-judiciary/our-justice-system/three-is

Snowypeaks · 28/03/2024 12:53

WeeBisom · 28/03/2024 11:51

Normally interveners in cases are NGOs or charities or government agencies (like the charity commission) who have real legal expertise in the area under appeal. It would be really odd if a random person was allowed to intervene. I can’t see how it would be anything other than a random biased testimony, in which case surely there should be women witnesses as well? But that’s not what the case is about … it’s solely about the legal issues.

I don’t even think that as a master , master mcCloud is especially qualified to talk about this case. It’s not like it’s a legal speciality.

The application to intervene, assuming one has been made, and the comments in the Guardian are all part of a performance of victimhood, IMO.

TheSnakeCharmer · 28/03/2024 12:57

Isn't it wonderful how a woman is the youngest ever person appointed to the post! Such progress! 😬