"How to be fair to transgender athletes"

[ZeldaFighter]

I wonder if this man telling women to just budge up and be kind - there isn't really a problem- knows what he's saying. Disappointingly, he's a sports science academic.

www.playthegame.org/news/practical-suggestions-on-how-sports-federations-can-be-fair-to-transgender-athletes/

Is it "Let him win, or he'll cry?"

What an absolute load of drivel!
Sport participation by its very nature IS discriminatory! We discriminate on myriad categories - in boxing / wrestling / weight lifting it’s by weight; we discriminate in the Paralympics dependent on the type and degree of disability; we discriminate by age; we discriminate by ranking. If we are going to allow men, whose performance would be mediocre in women’s competition, to compete against women, then we may as well do away with women’s categories full stop.
Women have fought long and hard for their own competition. Men have just found another way of taking our rights away.

I’ve seen the argument before that inclusion should be the default, so trans women should be included in the women’s category until it’s proven that they all have an unfair advantage in practice.

Nice try. We don’t include adults in children’s leagues until we can prove they all have an unfair advantage in practice.

We don’t include people with hearing impairments in the Paralympics until we can prove that they all have an unfair advantage in practice. And we shouldn’t include males in the women’s category, especially when they gave their own category to compete in.

really not tricky - men compete with men, women compete with women - unless it is a sport (like eventing) where they compete all together...

yes, some men will be weaker than others, that is why sport has winners and losers - that is life!

a transwomen is a man so should not be competing with women - there are no circumstances where that makes anything fair - the transwoman already has a category in which to compete, men.

gender is a social construct and has nothing to do with sport - what colour you wear / what clothes you wear / how you style your hair / whether you wear makeup - nothing to do with sport.

physiology from being born male / female - everything to do with sport.

So, really not complicated, men with men and women with women.

Or he'll 'feel unsafe'.

Oh the horror.

Surely it's just the same as everything else. They get their own category.

I've only read a bit, he's already mixing up sex and gender (there's no reason** for sports to be categorised by 'gender' , you fool, only sex) , and people with DSDs as well as trans - they're completely different issues.

I can understand why that might be an instant and 'obvious' reaction - but I would question it - there is already a men's category and a women's category in most sports (some even have an open category) - everyone is born either a man or a woman, so everyone already has a category. For those running sport, adding an additional category carries an overhead in admin / logistics / timings / staffing / etc. I have been a tennis referee for a number of years, and it is already complicated enough managing ages where it splits into boys and girls, without having to offer an additional category...

I think that in sport we have to start by saying:

• we have male / female categories - does this disadvantage anyone - the answer is no...

then we ask what is the impact if we did look to meet these demands:

• if men compete in women's events then that disadvantages the women - so should obviously not be allowed
• if a third category is required, then that disadvantages those who run events (often volunteers)
• if we leave it as now we disadvantage no-one...

the conclusion is I think pretty obvious...

the only challenge that exists (and which is not being fully addressed) is transmen who take hormones which could arguably give them an advantage over other women in the women's categories... but arguably they should be managed as you would any competitor who takes drug which may enhance their performance....

there is no automatic entitlement to do as one wishes - so it is important to stick to a structured, common-sense approach, and for those who want to cause issues, they should simply be told no!

A category for people who pretend to be the other sex sounds farcical.

Who would buy a ticket to see that!

A few issues I noticed in his argument:

He states a known prevelance of trans people in the population of 'at least 0.5%' o. The basis of the UK 2021 census - in which 0.5% of people answered the voluntary question re. Gender and identified as trans. He's suggesting the rate is likely higher but there's no evidence for this.

He also seems to assume the only relevant studies are ones directly relating to statistical sporting competitive performance. There's will be lots of other fairly standard scientific knowledge regarding the affect of these hormones on the body. That's before we even get to the point of assuming all transgender people take the hormones.

He also fails to acknowledge the complexity of the issue as regards mediocre male transitioning and outperforming top female competitors. He seems to think that if you can show that there's still a reasonable possibility of any female bearing a trans woman then that means fairness has been achieved. It hasn't.

I was disappointed that it's such a male-centred viewpoint. Women's bodies menstruate and produce babies. Men's bodies don't. AFAIK, taking oestrogen doesn't give you a menstrual cycle or allow you to get pregnant.

So every single transwoman has a physical advantage over every single woman because transwomen don't have to manage bleeding, menstrual symptoms, pregnancy, fertility, TTC, hormonal contraception or any of these things.

It's incredibly male-centric to concentrate on what male athletes find important and totally ignoring and diminishing issues which are of importance to women. And doesn't even see it!

I'd love someone to write a response- I bet Fair Play for Women would do a cracking job!

Medical transitioning makes normal participation in sport impossible. Puberty blockers wreck the body(and should banned). A body that's been through puberty can only fairly compete in its own sex class. A man who's androgen-blocked will struggle to compete with men, as will a woman who's testosterone-enhanced (and she can't fairly compete with other women either). So the only solution is trans-only classes, which is unlikely to be viable on numbers. (Obviously, people who have only socially transitioned can compete in their own sex class.)

Maybe trans people just have to accept that the price is having to give up competitive sport?

Also, transwomen don't just want to play sport. They want to play "women's sport". To validate their identity and to have a shot at winning. They could compete with men but they know they'd lose.

I noted the section on rugby and how the 2021 review by World Rugby focused on safety as a reason for maintaining a women only sport category. He denied there wasn’t any real evidence that a man playing with women made it less safe for women. However, the only real basis for that given is that Rugby currently has a number of law suits over head injuries and shouldn’t they get safety the men’s game in order first. He not only hasn’t provided any evidence that contradicts the 2021 review but is ignoring all the work currently underway on tackling heights and in game assessments. Epic logic fail in one paragraph alone. Can’t wait for Ross Tucker’s response.

Oops type wasn’t should be was.

Dr Harvey has history - it seems he’s conflating inclusion and acceptance for gay men in sport which seems to be his area of expertise with TW (I couldn’t possibly comment on how deliberate that misunderstanding’ is

https://venudhupa.com/equality-associates/andy-harvey/

fortunately we also have the wonderful sports scientists Jon pike and Ross tucker who won’t have a bar off this nonsense

Tommy Lundbergh has already responded, calling it the top of a long list of poor analyses of the transgender debate in sport.

https://twitter.com/TLexercise/status/1772556689138475117

People thought the same about women only sport.
Trans women are at a disadvantage to cis men, and an advantage to cis women so they don't fit in either group.

We have divisions for just disabled people.

As soon as someone conflates people with DSDs of various types with transwomen (healthy males), I start to wonder about their agenda.

I notice he also uses the upper estimate for prevalence of DSDs which includes conditions such as hypospadias. Silly man.

He lost me at.
According to esteemed feminist biologist, Anne Fausto-Sterling, there are over 40 medical categories for the way that differences in sex anatomy may develop and it is estimated that between 0.5 and 1.9 per cent of the population are born or develop so-called ‘intersex’ characteristics.

Andy Harvey suggests developing benchmarks for tolerable unfairness and baselines for acceptable safety risks

Why should women have to accept ‘tolerable unfairness’ or any additional safety risks?

Also, he’s not a sports scientist in the sense of the science of biology / physiology - his postgrad degrees are in business management, then gender, sexuality, politics and culture, and then a PhD in Psychosocial Studies (cultural and social history of sports literature and gender).

I don’t give a fuck what he says or thinks

He lost me at Caster Semenya the paragraph before. Pretending Semenya is anything other than a male with all male advantage is clearly a disingenuous argument from someone who identifies as a scientist.

Being fair to them, to my mind, means having their own specific categories for trans men and trans women, so they compete against one another. No way should women have to make room on the bench and have their changing spaces invaded.

He seems to think that if you can show that there's still a reasonable possibility of any female bearing a trans woman then that means fairness has been achieved. It hasn't.

Yes, exactly. A variation of the "meaningful competition" trope. No, we want fair competition - degrees of unfairness are not to be tolerated purely to allow men into our sports.

And there is no doubt about Caster Semenya's sex. He is a man. His DSD proves it.