Maths teacher sacked for refusing to use opposite sex pronouns.

[SweetChilliGirl]

I hope he wins at tribunal.

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/kevin-lister-transgender-pronouns-teacher-b2515054.html

But having been told by the safeguarding team that they didn't intend to do anything, what should he have done then?

He couldn't stay away from the tricky issue because he was teaching this child, who wanted him to pretend she was a boy. The school agreed, refused to apply normal safeguarding procedures, and the parents didn't know.

He was put in a difficult position when she asked to enter the maths competition for girls.

What do you think he should have done? If he was fully going along with the pretence she was a boy should he have said, "No, Liam, you can't enter because this is for girls"? He may have thought she wanted to identify as a girl for the purposes of the competition. I think if I'd been in his position I really wouldn't have known what to do.

When I was at high school in the 80s, teachers refused to use kid's nicknames, so is this any different? There was no official backing and the parents were kept in the dark, deliberately and wilfully so, by the school's safeguarding team.

People may find it disrespectful, but it's neither illegal, nor dangerous. It's a shocking travesty that he's been treated as though he were a paedophile, by the teacher's registry.

The DBS thing is truly beyond the pale.

I don't have an easy answer to this.
I get overwhelmed at how complicit schools have been in pushing this dangerous narrative about sex change in children being desirable. With a 6th former I know that issues of consent are more complex but also recognise that the trans capture of safeguarding authorities, the DBS means that they may well give advice that I'd disagree with.
I genuinely wish him well - I can just see a school leadership perspective that could undermine his case.

If teachers aren’t counsellors, why are they expected to follow the child’s ‘wants’?

They don’t have time or training to explore them with the child. No idea whether what’s being requested is harmful. Surely sticking to official name and pronouns is sensible?

What if child asks to be called Melons? I know a young woman who did. I hope her teachers refused as her value And individuality wasn’t to be found in her big bust.

It too much to expect teachers to navigate this. Register name, sex based pronouns, are the only sensible way. It’s a shame it became about an individual child. That’s the school’s fault.

I do think the school should have informed her parents and I thought that the new guidance was for them to do so (although this probably took place a while ago).

A name is merely a name. I don’t agree that by using their new chosen name it is being complicit in anything. Again, if you are consistently gender critical, then you surely believe that there is no such thing as gendered names, any more than gendered colours. I don’t know where I stand on that debate, but there are some things better ignored in the classroom, both for the sake of the pupil and the teacher.

How has his confrontational attitude helped her become a better mathematician? Simple answer, it hasn’t. Has she engaged with him about her ‘transition’? Nope, quite the opposite, it has probably made her view more entrenched. Has it given other pupils the green light to bully her? Yup. So, on every level, as a teacher, it is a fail.

@pickledandpuzzled ,

Are you a teacher?

Pupils care a lot about their names, some are really embarrassed about them. I guess it is that hormonal stage.

Going by the register name makes some sense but you risk upsetting and embarrassing some pupils. So calling Alexandra her full name rather than Lexie (say) might make her blush scarlet and not focus for the next 10 minutes. Is that what you are suggesting is best practice?

Teaching is about building positive relationships, so the pupil can learn in an environment which they consider safe and nurturing.

I used to be. We had ‘known as’ in the register. So after the first term of reception where it became apparent that Lexie didn’t know who Alexandra is, and Fifi has no idea her name is Phoebe, it was all sorted.

@Newbutoldfather are you telling me you’d call a child Melons?

The way he went about expressing his concerns may not have been ideal. He was a bit clumsy and undiplomatic perhaps. He probably got his tactics wrong. But, bottom line, he was compelled to use certain speech that went against his fundamental beliefs and he was sacked for refusing to do that. And that is intolerable in a free society.

@pickledandpuzzled ,

No I wouldn’t call a girl melons (or cunt) either, that is just silly. Reductio ad Extremis arguments don’t often make good points. Did this ‘Melons’ thing actually happen?!

I also had ‘known as’ in the register. It wasn’t always up to date, and how do you know that wasn’t exactly what the register said about this girl?

The ‘compelled speech’ argument is also silly. I can believe someone is a girl and call them John. There is nothing fundamental about a name. If he had been forced to write ‘John, our new boy, is doing very well’, that would be compelled speech. There are loads of weird and non traditional names these days.

It is about sensible compromise and being respectful. So you would use the new name in class but use the name repeatedly in the report, rather than the chosen pronoun.

I can just about accept the argument that John isn’t necessarily a boy. It’s disingenuous, because clearly the name change signals a claim to have transitioned into becoming a boy, but I accept that a personal name is not gendered in principle. But he was compelled to use pronouns too.

this probably took place a while ago

If you'd read the links I posted for you earlier, you'd know exactly when this happened. It was in September 2021.

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kevin-lister-v-new-college-swindon

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12887549/I-sacked-20-years-teacher-standing-gender-ideology-new-guidance-welcome-writes-KEVIN-LISTER.html

What would you have done when the girl who everyone was supposed to pretend was a boy asked to enter the maths competition for girls?

@OldCrone ,

I would have said of course you can enter. I wouldn’t have gone anywhere near the contradiction in thinking you are a boy and entering a girls’ maths competition. I would have entered her under ‘John’ and contacted the competition organiser and explained the situation.

In the unlikely event I was charged by another pupil, I would have said the competition was segregated by sex, not gender, and left it there.

In the same way, I thought it pretty bizarre that a girl in a girls’ school where I taught wanted to socially transition but remain at the same school. As long as she behaved and studied in the lesson, it wasn’t my business. Not my monkey, not my circus….

This compelled pronouns thing is quite strange, though. It is very rare you have to use a pronoun in a lesson (the only time I did, I had probably forgotten the pupil’s name!). I can only think of it coming up in report writing, where you can avoid it by name repetition, and conversations with other staff, which is a fair time to stick to your principles.

Do you think that his solution of calling every other child by their name but just pointing at her was acceptable?

My school’s policy was to call everyone by their surname. Fortunately there was no Smellie in my year. I’m not sure whether there was any leeway for teachers to avoid that sort of dilemma. A few teachers used nicknames, not necessarily with the consent of the pupils. For example, one teacher consistently called Wiseman “Wiseacre”. I don’t know whether Wiseman minded, but he survived.

But the school leadership seem to have abandoned him (as well as abandoning safeguarding and rationality).

He was left in a position where he was effectively forced by the school to affirm the child's trans identity, when he thought this was detrimental to her and should be discussed with the parents.

So he seems to have been left with 3 choices:

1. Go along with what the school demanded, even though he believed this wasn't in the child's best interests.
2. Do what he thought was appropriate and best for the child, even though it went against the school.
3. Resign.

He'd probably should have gone for 3, but he probably didn't realise how far this insane ideology has captured institutions.

I think I'd have been completely thrown when this girl who everyone is pretending is a boy asked to enter the girl-only competition.

Some things that might have gone through my head:

"We're supposed to pretend she's a boy. Will I be accused of transphobia if I say she can enter?"

"If I say she can't enter because she's a boy, will I be accused of transphobia?"

"If I say yes, will some of the boys ask why they can't enter, because she's apparently a boy just like them?"

"If I say no because she's a boy, will some of the boys start saying they're girls so that they can enter?"

"Has she now changed her mind and decided she's a girl after all?"

All this would have happened in the few seconds between her saying she wanted to enter and me having to decide whether to add her name (which name?) to the list.

I think I'd end up thinking "fuck it, I'm doomed" and making a quick decision, aware that no matter what I did it would probably be wrong in some way.

@Newbutoldfather "Teaching in a classroom is not about engendering your views, however right they may be, it is about teaching a subject and creating a healthy happy learning environment."

Except that it's becoming clearer and clearer that a policy of blanket affirmation maximises short-term health and happiness over medium- and long- term.

It's time to push back.

Are you saying I didn’t know a busty 17yr old who was introducing herself as Melons? I most certainly did, though not at her school.

And if you start agreeing to call kids whatever they ask without challenge, there are going to be issues.

In this case, a girl was attempting to transition without her parents being aware.

She then totally confuzzled the teacher by entering a girls’ math contest.

With time and opportunity I’d develop a plan to address it. In the heat of the moment I would make mistakes. I wouldn’t deserve to be struck off for it.

"Teaching in a classroom is not about engendering your views, however right they may be, it is about teaching a subject and creating a healthy happy learning environment."

How do you create a healthy happy learning environment for all the children when you are participating in the fantasies of some of them that they have changed sex?

What is the effect on the children whose fantasies are being affirmed?

What is the effect on other children who don't believe that it's possible to change sex? How can this be a happy healthy environment for them when they know that teachers are lying to them? How can they raise any concerns about this ideology when teachers are actively participating in it?

@OldCrone ,

‘How do you create a healthy happy learning environment for all the children when you are participating in the fantasies of some of them that they have changed sex?’

But you’re not, which is where you are going wrong here. You are literally calling them by their current preferred name.

Most pupils don’t care and just want to learn and do well in their exams. They probably think that ‘John’ is attention-seeking. The last thing they want is for their teacher to give her precisely what she wants by challenging her name, leading to a protracted discussion and very little Maths being done (well some would actually love this, but for all the wrong reasons).

By just casually using the new name and moving on, you are not affirming anything. If you make a big deal if it, it just opens up the whole ‘transitioning’ debate to the class.

Anyone who has taught a subject at secondary (especially hard Science or Maths) would know that there is no reason to get involved, it has nothing to do with the lesson.

What name would be used on end of term reports ? (if there is still such a thing)

But using the preferred name of a student is by definition 'giving attention'. Not using the preferred name and pronouns so it becomes 'a thing' is also giving attention.

It's win-win for the student and lose-lose for the teacher.

I feel very sorry for teachers who have to navigate this.

There is nothing fundamental about a name.

In these contexts there really is. If you don’t understand that, you don’t really understand what’s going on.

So a 'confused and vulnerable minor' but do what they want or you'll be fired and struck off the register it seems?