Maths teacher sacked for refusing to use opposite sex pronouns.

[SweetChilliGirl]

I hope he wins at tribunal.

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/kevin-lister-transgender-pronouns-teacher-b2515054.html

Fingers crossed he wins. What a shocking waste of everyone's time. I have never felt more sorry for teachers than I do now.

It wasn’t pronouns, he was refusing to call her by her ‘new’ name in class, arguing it is compelled speech, which I just think is pretty rude.

But it is compelled speech! That’s exactly what compelled speech is. He refused to be forced into pretending he thought she was now a boy.

There are few things more reckless than trying to represent yourself in court. If he thinks he’s going to get the chance to stand up and make a political statement he’s in for a rude awakening, doubly so if he thinks that using pseudo-intellectual arguments like ‘compelled speech’ will provide a magic wand.

He’s going to have to find a way to demonstrate that his personal beliefs trump the child’s personal needs under the law as it stands, and I’m pretty sure (though one can never be certain) his arguments will be found wanting.

Good point. He should crowd fund for a shit hot lawyer. He'd have no trouble AT ALL in raising the funds.

You’re mixing two things up. Yes, it isn’t wise for an amateur to represent himself in court and it sounds as if he’s making a dog’s breakfast of it. But that does not mean that it is a “pseudo-intellectual” defence to argue that he was being compelled to use certain speech - speech that went against his fundamental beliefs. For this is what happened.

He is crowdfunding - pretty sure any link here will be deleted - but using his name and crowd fund to Google brings it up easily. Time for a bit of gardening! 🥬 🍅 🥕

@Tukmgru But is it a "need" to be called by a new name? Social transition is not a neutral act according to the Cass review. Would you call someone Napoleon if he told you he was Napoleon? Would this need, if it is in fact one, trump someone your else's legally protected gender-critical beliefs? What about the safeguarding risks?

There is not just one teacher affected here. If he uses the new name, surely the message is, everyone must. Does the "need" (how do you prove that this is a need?) of one individual trump the right to freedom of expression and the right to holding a legally protected belief of a large group of people? I am not sure this case is as clearcut as you seem to think.

Can you give me an example of compelled speech please? I thought it was being forced to say something with which you disagree, irrespective if that is rude or hurting someone else's feelings.

This is just another case where the rights and wants of different individuals or groups clash.

I wish Ben was there 😕

I think there is a degree of hypocrisy about names going on.

If a boy can wear a dress, why can’t a boy be called Jane? I mean my own name is a girls’ name in another language.

Why can’t a Maths teacher call this student by their chosen name without fully buying into them changing ‘gender’. In the past I taught a girl who was socially transitioning, called them by their new name, but never believed they had changed anything bar their name.

There is a massive difference between fighting a confused child compared with law or guidance from large establishments.

It is like I wouldn’t tell an anorexic in class that they were thin and had body dysmorphia, regardless of the fact that is an objective truth.

You seem to have misunderstood what was going on @Newbutoldfather.

This is from the article that Kevin Lister wrote for the Daily Mail.

My ordeal began in September 2021, when I received an email from one of my A-level pupils, Lizzie*, informing me that she wanted to be known as 'Liam', and addressed with male pronouns.

The request came out of the blue. There had been no suggestion that she felt uncomfortable as a girl.

Concerned about Lizzie's wellbeing, I raised a safeguarding concern with the school — Swindon New College — and asked if her parents had been notified or asked for their consent to their daughter changing gender at school. I also raised the possibility that she might be self-medicating with testosterone.

The reason for this is that I had read reports of young women recklessly purchasing this hormone online — which aids the physical transition from female to male — if they are unable to obtain it on prescription.

A few weeks later, the college's safeguarding team told me they were not going to contact Lizzie's parents. They didn't justify this decision, but I strongly believe the college was taking the advice given by trans activist groups not to inform parents of a student's gender change without the child's permission.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12887549/I-sacked-20-years-teacher-standing-gender-ideology-new-guidance-welcome-writes-KEVIN-LISTER.html

He was concerned about the wellbeing of the student. He thought her parents should be informed and her transgender identity should be discussed with them. The school decided her parents didn't need to know and shouldn't be informed. The school acted recklessly.

A more useful analogy with anorexia would be that a teacher is instructed by the school to affirm the student's belief that she is fat and encourage her to consider liposuction.

Unfortunately he has been classed as the equivalent of a convicted pedophile by DBS and can never work with children as he will not pass an enhanced DBS. So he is also having to take the DBS to court for judicial review of their decision. The whole thing is just total persecution. I have contributed to his crowd funder . https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12988019/amp/Teacher-sues-Government-misgendering-student.html

@F1rstDoNoHarm ,

‘A more useful analogy with anorexia would be that a teacher is instructed by the school to affirm the student's belief that she is fat and encourage her to consider liposuction.’

No, absolutely not. He is not being asked to encourage her beliefs but merely to teach her Maths and call her by her chosen name (and I guess use new pronouns in her report, but I bet he could get around that by just using her new name).

Classroom teachers are not counsellors and shouldn’t be diving in where professionals would go very gently and carefully.

In my own small experience in this area, I always called pupils by their chosen names and hedged my gender answers when asked, but was very explicit about the immutable nature of chromosomal based sex, which is staying true to the science.

And, as I predicted up above, he looks like he is losing his case, as his dogmatism is not allowing him to engage with the court process properly.

I hope the DBS has pretty damn good grounds. That is absolutely shocking.

Editing, after reading page 2.

He sounds like a decent man and I agree with everything he’s said.

I would much prefer him to have a lawyer, but it may already be too late.

I hope the judge takes it into account that he’s representing himself. He does have the advantage that his position appears to have been logical, considered and consistent. He doesn’t sound like a fanatic and I hope he is successful.

With the teacher being so close to the retirement, probably less f*cks left to give.

I'm always uneasy when an individual child / young person is at the centre of a case like this. I get that he felt strongly about the situation but it 's incumbent on teachers to follow school policy / procedures. So while I agree with his views, I still don't think it was his place to engage in any discussions with her around this and wouldn't be surprised if he loses.
Having said that, the decision by the DBS is outrageous. If their decision is not overturned becuase he was found to be failing to follow school policy /management instructions it will make the lives of teachers everywhere more difficult.
This case is problematic for so many reasons and I'm not certain that it will help teachers struggling to deal with all this.

What a brave and principled man.

@MrsOvertonsWindow ,

That is a good and fair post.

I think the DBS thing is an overreaction and he could appeal it, but given his age and attitude, maybe it is time to think about retiring or doing something else.

Teaching in a classroom is not about engendering your views, however right they may be, it is about teaching a subject and creating a healthy happy learning environment. If he had Donne this sensitively in PSHE or form time, I would have more sympathy.

It is hard to know whether the pupil is a sensitive child, maybe on the spectrum, or a bit of a shit stirrer. Either way, classrooms are tricky environments, and the last thing a teacher should be doing is encouraging other pupils to pick on another pupil, which his behaviour was clearly going to do.

The place for this debate is the staff room, among fellow professionals, not the classroom.

He seems to have been concerned about the student and wanted the school to inform her parents.

What is your view on the school's refusal to inform the parents?

The difficulty is, he's correct about parents. But he's muddied the water by involving himself in discussions with the the child.
I can think of several cases involving mentally vulnerable children, desperate to involve members of staff with their personal issues where we've told staff - "do not get involved in any discussions about this. Send the child to .... and let the DSL know what's been said"
That was a management direction to protect a vulnerable child from countless adults with good intentions but who could unwittingly make a situation worse.
Sometimes individual staff need to stay away from tricky issues with some children / young people .

I hope he wins but am just concerned that he may not if I've read the situation clearly.

but merely to teach her Maths and call her by her chosen name

Merely. There’s no such thing as merely here. To call her by her chosen name is to participate in social transition of the child. In this case it’s doing so without consulting the parents. Social transition is not a benign act. It is not “merely” anything. It leads to medical transition. It would be great if names weren’t tied up with social transition but they are.

And aside from that, if I found out school was calling my child by a completely different name, not even for gender reasons, just because the child wanted it, I’d be livid.

I’m as GC as they come, but my issue isn’t with the children in question, so I don’t pick my battles with them.

They’re suffering enough under gender ideology, without me posturing and haranguing all over the place.

He sounds like a terrible teacher.

Classroom teachers are not counsellors and shouldn’t be diving in where professionals would go very gently and carefully.

I completely agree with this in theory, but in practice, the mission creep for teachers to be counsellors has been taking place for years, and not just around trans stuff.

Any kind of school-wide policy around affirming social transition puts every teacher in the position of facilitating something that they are not trained to do and shouldn't be expected to do.

I don't know about the merits of this particular case but I think that many schools have lost sight of the fact that in 99.9% of cases the people who care the most for children's wellbeing and happiness - and should also be doing the actual parenting - is their parents. I've read so many policies recently that seem to cast the parents as potential threats to their kids and a "professionals know best" approach. And then the result is often teachers on their knees when parents seem to expect schools to do not just the teaching but also all the parenting for them.

Xiaoxiong · Yesterday 10:55

MrsOvertonsWindow he does have a crowdfunder now and it looks like he has a barrister helping him - Dr. Anna Loutfi, of the Bad Law Project -

I thought that you were taking the piss out of The Good Law Project, until I looked them up. They seem to be an interesting outfit, good on them.