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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Urgent - Alternatives to GenderGP for HRT?

31 replies

SisterSupport · 15/03/2024 10:32

Following on from my earlier thread, please could you recommend alternatives to GenderGP which are likely to offer better holistic care, should our ASD 19yo DS wish to pursue the HRT route (which we obviously hope he won't)? Someone mentioned GenderCare and there's obviously the NHS. We've registered with the Bayswater support group and will be seeing our DS over the weekend to hopefully talk about things. Thanks for your help and support.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5027284-5027284-asd-son-gendergp-help-needed?reply=133719111

ASD son & GenderGP - Help needed | Mumsnet

My DS (19, ASD & ADHD) has made an appointment with GenderGP because he wants HRT. What can we say to help him change his mind please or at leas...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5027284-5027284-asd-son-gendergp-help-needed?reply=133719111

OP posts:
ANameChangePresents · 15/03/2024 11:10

Perhaps I'm being obtuse but so you mean cross-sex hormones? HRT is replacing hormones one would natally produce should a person develop along the Norms for their sex class.

HermioneWeasley · 15/03/2024 11:16

i Wouldn’t be facilitating any access to cross sex hormones. If he insists he can go via the NHS and not any dodgy private clinic

TheClogLady · 15/03/2024 11:35

None really. The private services (really just a bunch of loosely connected freelancers) exist only to rubber stamp a gender dysphoria/gender incongruence diagnosis or write letters okaying them for surgery and then refer on to associated endocrinologist/private surgeon.

Any exploratory therapy or differential diagnosis is meant to occur before contacting the transition services doctors.

The most rigorous of the first stage doctors seem to be Dr Dimitri Popelyuk and his staff at The Gender Clinic (they at least insist on calling a family member or partner to corroborate the service user’s personal history story, which makes a lot of transition seekers angry) or perhaps GenderPlus ((headed by Aiden Kelly) who are at least CQC registered (genderists complain about them being expensive and requiring lots of unnecessary’ sessions, but GenderPlus are still gender ideologues from my vantage point, which is terfy stepmother to an teenage transman). Kelly is a psychologist and Popelyuk is a psychiatrist, iirc.

GenderGP is currently close to collapsing due to a combo of raising prices and announcing the use of AI in their systems, so basically charging more money for less personal attention.

I’ve seen very few stories of transition seekers being rejected or even overly questioned by private doctors - the psych side of things seem to weed some people out via online triage forms but once an appointment is made almost everyone seems to get a diagnosis (sometimes with two appointments instead of just one) and the endocrinologists only seem to pushback when service users have unreasonable requests regarding wanting to pick and choose between hormonal effects as though on the character creator stage of a video game.

Even some people who claim to be systems and use ‘we’ as a preferred pronoun have been waved through. The only person I’ve seen rejected by multiple gender services seems to want to be an early teenage boy forever (and in reality is an early 20s woman).

The only gender service that seems to insist on seeing people in person and is capable of doing blood tests in house is YourGP based in Scotland.

Gender Hormone Clinic (London) do seem to do a few sessions in person but that’s run by a nurse prescriber, not a doctor (it used to be part of London Transgender Clinic but the plastic surgeon who owned that has declared bankruptcy, and the hormone side was scythed off before the rest of the business went under).

TheClogLady · 15/03/2024 11:47

if you let me know where you/your son are based I can probably give you some insight into the NHS provision in your area - the GICs are 4 nation specific and not limited by catchment beyond that (Nottingham is currently the most popular in England due to much shorter waits but it’s having some internal issues) but there are now a number of geography dependent ‘pilot schemes’.
There is seemingly very little consistency between NHS services and quality of holistic care seems to be more dependent on individual clinicians rather than applied via NHS top down policy.

(Researching both private and NHS gender services has been my special interest ever since DsD ‘came out’ over 5 years ago. We’ve managed to hold off on medicalisation while letting her play around with her appearance via clothes and hair etc but she’s 18 later this year and will have access to the TonyBlairBux ‘Child Trust Fund’ that we now sorely regret paying into for 14 years!)

Rightsraptor · 15/03/2024 12:00

Your title is misleading, OP, as it's not HRT your child wants. I'd thought when I read it that you'd been getting HRT from Gender GP and it was being withdrawn.

I really don't meant to sound nit-picking but incorrect use of words and language-shifting have been tools of the Genderists for some time now & which they've used to great effect to confuse people.

I hope you sort your child's problems out.

AlisonDonut · 15/03/2024 12:09

Is this just an attempt to test the posters on FWR to see if some will actually refer him to get hormones so that you can prove something or other?

FinallyASunnyDay · 15/03/2024 12:15

The above message about ALL adult clinics (private and NHS) being gender-affirming is true, so although your DC might get a 'better' (more detailed, more rounded) initial assessment, it will not change the outcome - since the presumption is that if they say they are trans, then that is that. However, some of the private clinics do actually follow protocols that try to do it prescribe safely. GenderGP just has a completely cut and paste process.

TheClogLady (above) gives good advice.

And yes - don't be sucked in by your DC calling it HRT - this is transactivist speak for a trans-identifying person having their 'missing' (opposite-sex) hormones replaced. The term cross-sex hormones is more honest. It must be really difficult to be plunged into this stuff but it is absolutely vital you educate yourself on the subject so that you can understand your DC's demands, wishes etc (which will be heavily influenced/coached by online or real TQ+ communities). Highly recommend starting at the beginning of Gender A Wider Lens podcasts. There are some great threads on here, and Bayswater will I'm sure be really helpful.

SisterSupport · 15/03/2024 13:32

Thank you @TheClogLady and @FinallyASunnyDay for your detailed answers, they're much appreciated. I was hoping for non-gender-affirming places I could steer my child to but sadly it seems non exist. I certainly don't want to facilitate anything to do with medicalisation but that seems to be the route he's considering.

This week has been a steep learning curve and I'm still working my way through the resources suggested to me in the previous post. I've done lots of reading, we had a call with the Bayswater Support group this morning and I've just listened to the GenderGP podcast recommended.

Apologies to the posters I upset with my incorrect use of language or accidentally misleading title. I'm learning quickly but still playing catch up with it all.

OP posts:
SisterSupport · 15/03/2024 13:38

@TheClogLady I've sent you a DM.

OP posts:
TheClogLady · 15/03/2024 13:43

Most of the private gender freelancers have NHS day jobs and are thus somewhat motivated to at least loosely follow NHS policies - some people will end up being seen by exact same NHS clinicians as they saw privately while on the NHS waitlists and if one process was wildly different to another it would likely just make the clinicians own lives harder in the long run (trans patients are prone to making complaints, search What Do They Know for FOIs sent to GICs for evidence of some rather alarming grudge-holding).

Some of the private psychs respond to triage forms with (paraphrasing) ‘Dr Gender is not able to help you in a timely manner’ which kinda makes it sound like they have an overflowing wait list (plausible deniability!) but really seems to mean something like ‘Your history of complex mental health conditions means I can’t funnel you down the one Zoom appointment, £350, letter of recommendation for hormones supplied within 6 weeks route without serious risk to my licence to practice. See you in 2-4 years when you can have multiple NHS appointments and I can spread the legal liability amongst a whole NHS team, maybe even two teams if we occasionally send an email to your local mental health trust’

The thing that makes Gender Care/Gender Doctors/Northern Gender Network a less-bad option than GenderGP is that the prescribing endocrinologist is GMC registered and will either enter a ‘shared care’ agreement with the patient’s GP for prescriptions and blood tests or, if the GP refuses (which is their legal right) the endocrinologist will be obligated to monitor/prescribe at their own professional risk, or cease to issue prescriptions (which they will eventually do if the patient doesn’t provide blood tests/pay for follow-up consultations).

Whereas GenderGP have mysterious, unnamed doctors who aren’t on the GMC register (and thus there is nowhere to complain to if the patient is harmed).

I’m absolutely not encouraging/endorsing cross sex hormones for gender distress/dysphoria/identity affirmation btw, but I do appreciate that once a DC is a legal adult parental intervention cannot achieve much more than harm reduction, especially if the adult child is utterly determined to self harm in this manner.

FWIW It’s my understanding that estrogen is less immediately harmful to the male body than testosterone is to the female body, but males are more able to access genital surgery in a shorter time frame than females, so swings and roundabouts re: which sexed route causes most life-impacting harm in a 5-8 year time span.

if your DS does start the medical process, do try to keep gently questioning and encouraging him to develop critical thought rather than completely giving in or giving up hope. Gender transition amongst girls is becoming increasing unfashionable (social contagion of cross sex identity is now becoming a social contagion of desisting or detransing) and teen boys are a few years behind on the trend trajectory so it should start to fall out of favour in a year or two. Delay medicalisation as much as you can (be aware that while I said Popleyuk seems more cautious than some other psychs he also has much shorter waiting lists, as trans people have declared him a gatekeeper and gatekeeping is abusive, or somesuch. Might be better to aim for someone
like Dundas (Gendercare) who is quite middle of the road, NHS compliant in approach but also popular enough to have a 6 month plus waitlist.

FinallyASunnyDay · 15/03/2024 15:09

If you can persuade DC to hold off until they have had some truly exploratory psychotherapy, you could try therapyfirst dot org.

And completely agree with everything said by TheClogLady.

I'm so sorry you've been launched into this. I hope you manage to get support, minimise harm to your DC and maintain a good relationship with them through it.

InnCognito · 15/03/2024 15:16

Having been in a similar position I'd completely endorse this "do try to keep gently questioning and encouraging him to develop critical thought rather than completely giving in or giving up hope." Divorce it from gender & sex, and draw parallels with other medical interventions. I used weight loss/Ozempic but whatever works. And asking them to consider how they might advise a friend. Would they advise caution? Would they take the first option offered? Would they be sceptical of an organisation that offered speed of treatment in return for cash? It obviously depends on what presses your DS's buttons, but you are undoubtedly the person who will know that best.

SisterSupport · 15/03/2024 18:45

Thank you all for your support, I'm so grateful for this community. We'll try to get him to think about it critically through gentle questioning and hope he'll change his mind or at the very least delay it. I learnt today that he can't 'just come off' cross sex hormones if he changes his mind and could be on replacement testosterone for the rest of his life if he goes too far down this route. The whole thing is such dangerous cult thinking.

OP posts:
BonfireLady · 15/03/2024 22:56

SisterSupport · 15/03/2024 13:32

Thank you @TheClogLady and @FinallyASunnyDay for your detailed answers, they're much appreciated. I was hoping for non-gender-affirming places I could steer my child to but sadly it seems non exist. I certainly don't want to facilitate anything to do with medicalisation but that seems to be the route he's considering.

This week has been a steep learning curve and I'm still working my way through the resources suggested to me in the previous post. I've done lots of reading, we had a call with the Bayswater Support group this morning and I've just listened to the GenderGP podcast recommended.

Apologies to the posters I upset with my incorrect use of language or accidentally misleading title. I'm learning quickly but still playing catch up with it all.

💐💐
It sounds like you're getting some great advice on here and from Bayswater.
I'm a parent in a different situation (nearly 15 year old girl, so far hopefully not past the edge of the rabbit hole) so all I can add on top of the above comments is a note of solidarity. This is such a scary situation to be in and one that must feel impossible: push too far and your child will pull away, push not enough and harm moves closer. I hope you're able to help and find a way through xx

allnewfor2024 · 16/03/2024 10:51

@SisterSupport I have PMed you

SisterMidnight77 · 19/03/2024 16:54

@SisterSupport hi. How long did you have to wait before being accepted by Bayswater. I had an email from them last week but nothing since.

windysocks · 19/03/2024 17:19

What does he hope to achieve by taking opposite sex hormones ? Are you expecting to fund this ?

SisterSupport · 19/03/2024 18:02

SisterMidnight77 · 19/03/2024 16:54

@SisterSupport hi. How long did you have to wait before being accepted by Bayswater. I had an email from them last week but nothing since.

@SisterMidnight77 my husband and I both registered seperately, I think he registered last Wednesday and I registered on Thursday, then we had a call scheduled for Friday morning which we were both on. After that they emailed details to join the discord group, which I registered for but haven't arranged my video call to verify ID yet, just because I needed to take a bit of a step back for my own mental health. That's as far as I've got currently. I'm currently reading "When kids say they're trans: a guide for Thoughtful Parents" which I'd highly recommend.

OP posts:
SisterSupport · 19/03/2024 18:04

windysocks · 19/03/2024 17:19

What does he hope to achieve by taking opposite sex hormones ? Are you expecting to fund this ?

Those are conversations we still need to have. No, we won't be funding this.

OP posts:
SisterMidnight77 · 19/03/2024 18:20

Thank you @SisterSupport. I was sent an email asking me to say more - which I did - but was unsure what they were looking for. I will wait a while and then try and contact them again.

Cheesehound · 20/03/2024 07:05

TheClogLady · 15/03/2024 11:47

if you let me know where you/your son are based I can probably give you some insight into the NHS provision in your area - the GICs are 4 nation specific and not limited by catchment beyond that (Nottingham is currently the most popular in England due to much shorter waits but it’s having some internal issues) but there are now a number of geography dependent ‘pilot schemes’.
There is seemingly very little consistency between NHS services and quality of holistic care seems to be more dependent on individual clinicians rather than applied via NHS top down policy.

(Researching both private and NHS gender services has been my special interest ever since DsD ‘came out’ over 5 years ago. We’ve managed to hold off on medicalisation while letting her play around with her appearance via clothes and hair etc but she’s 18 later this year and will have access to the TonyBlairBux ‘Child Trust Fund’ that we now sorely regret paying into for 14 years!)

@TheClogLady would you mind sharing the internal issues at the Nottingham GIC please?

TheClogLady · 20/03/2024 09:19

This keeps reloading on me so I will probably do a few short posts rather than lose my post every time I look for another link’

Nottingham has (past and present) some of the biggest gender ideologues in the NHS eg this chap (big part of WPATH standards of care V8, teaches on the EPATH summer school): https://epath.eu/2023-conference/programme/plenary-opening-session/

Plenary Opening Session - EPATH

https://epath.eu/2023-conference/programme/plenary-opening-session/

TheClogLady · 20/03/2024 09:27

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Walter-Bouman

Urgent - Alternatives to GenderGP for HRT?
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