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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Midwife and trans issues

58 replies

MarkWithaC · 15/03/2024 09:28

Zoe Williams piece in Thursday’s Guardian. Seems to me like a fairly tenuous link being made between ‘anti-trans’ groups and anti-abortion groups. Also, can anyone understand what the stuff about trans men coming for abortions means/what point is being made, because I’m struggling.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/14/juno-carey-midwife-abortions-terminations-rape-survivors-sex-workers

‘I’m not judging you’ – midwife Juno Carey on what it’s like to work in an abortion clinic

She’s looked after teenagers, rape survivors and trafficked sex workers – and assisted at terminations while she’s been pregnant herself. Still, she wouldn’t change her job for anything.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/14/juno-carey-midwife-abortions-terminations-rape-survivors-sex-workers

OP posts:
duc748 · 15/03/2024 12:00

Theeyeballsinthesky · 15/03/2024 10:44

Zoe Williams has chosen trans as her hill to die on. She will shoe horn it into as many articles as she can. There is literally no bad faith position she won’t take on GC feminism. Her immense privilege and barnstorming lack of self awareness are breathtaking. She is the very definition of a patriarchy quisling

Yup, this. I know it sounds glib, but time after time, she comes over as, well, not very bright.

EasternStandard · 15/03/2024 12:05

Readthelastpagefirst · 15/03/2024 09:51

Calling the Keira Bell v The Tavistock case 'anti trans' confirms everything we already knew about the Guardian.

That, and shoehorning in a nonsensical link between right wing anti-abortionists and 'anti trans' activists shows their true colours.

Yep. I don’t think people should be at what they write anymore

It’s so bad and so obviously pro male pro TRA

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 15/03/2024 12:16

Zoe Williams is a dick-pandering dimwit. I look forward to her reverse-ferret in due course.

Froodwithatowel · 15/03/2024 12:26

There comes a point where this has been explained so much, so many times in so many places that a journalist still failing to get it is either quite worryingly dim witted, or is writing propaganda rather than journalism.

Readthelastpagefirst · 15/03/2024 12:32

Esgaroth · 15/03/2024 10:10

That's actually such a cruel thing to say. Keira Bell was trans identified and the case was fighting for recognition of the harms done to her as a child and arguing for this group to receive appropriate care. Williams is basically saying Keira Bell was anti herself. Cold.

Yes, it was using the suffering inflicted on her as a cheap way to try to prove a (non existent) point, that's particularly awful.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/03/2024 12:39

I don't think Williams will ever reverse ferret, she doesn't have the integrity. She once claimed she thought the idea of women only spaces was ridiculous but in 2013 it turned out she had actually written an approving article about women only gyms.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 15/03/2024 12:40

Peskysquirrel · 15/03/2024 10:26

Some of this article is interesting - the sex trafficking paragraph, for example.

However...
"While the issues are different, there is a massive – and new – crossover between anti-abortion and anti-trans activism, a lot of it funded by the same rightwing cadres. This is particularly pronounced in the US, but you can see the same issues being linked in the UK, with the lawyer Paul Conrathe bringing an anti-trans test case one year (Keira Bell v the Tavistock) and an anti-abortion test case the next."

Zoe is reeeeally reaching to evidence this "massive and new crossover" in the UK.
Reference to one lawyer who worked on the two cited cases, the first of which was NOT anti-trans and the other NOT anti-abortion per se (far more complex).
The same old right-wing association.
The inability to realise that the UK is not the US.

Does the cab rank rule apply to Conrathe's cases?

TathingScinsel · 15/03/2024 12:51

The difference between ‘improve abortion services by listening to women’ and ‘improve transition services by listening to transgender people’ is that women who had a termination 25 years ago aren’t trying to influence doctors re: prescribing unlicensed medications or experimental surgical procedures to use on other women seeking abortion in future!

Hearing women’s voices re: abortion means hearing about problems accessing services in a timely manner (can’t have year-long wait lists for terminations!) and clinicians being properly aware of resultant complications and long term and short term side effects, preferably via mid and long term follow up, in order to minimise those complications and side effects in future.
It means being aware that women seek abortion for a variety of reasons and while the physiological process of providing abortion may not vary much, the emotional, social and practical circumstances may vary enormously.
It means acknowledging that while for many (the majority?) of women do feel great relief, others feel more conflicted, and a small number experience overwhelming regret. It means developing an understanding of the conditions and circumstances that may lead to future regret and having some sort of support service/safety net for the minority of women whose mental health is negatively affected by the experience.
It means working towards a society where the decision to terminate or continue a pregnancy is made freely and independently and not coercively or solely due to economic pressure.
it means good sex education and access to a wide range of free and easily available contraception.
It means taking sexual offences seriously, for survivors to be properly supported both psychologically and practically and for perpetrators to be prosecuted and if convicted, incarcerated and when released, registered and monitored.
it means properly funded social services to support the girls and vulnerable women who do not have a safe and reliable family network to support them through the process.

Trans ideology argues for the opposite of almost every one of the above - eg I remember the Action for Trans Health Manifesto that demanded trans people be taught to perform reassignment procedures on each other and Shon Faye’s trans book (of the famously large advance) advocating for the total abolishment of the prison system.

I totally agree re: misinfo re being forbidden to show scan images tho - I’d booked a private first stage appointment at Marie Stopes intending for the first stage appointment to lead to an early surgical procedure a week or two later (this was pre medical procedure era) and in the days between making the appointment and the appointment itself had decided to continue the pregnancy instead. As the appointment was prepaid and I was mindful that my mind may change again I rocked up at the appointment as planned (with my mum in tow). Staff were marvellous, mindful not to affect my decision in either direction but totally accepting whatever the outcome. No one made me feel as though I were wasting their time. I was able to not only see the scan monitor, but get a printed picture to take home - possibly the worst scan pic of all time because it was very early on and thus all there was to see was a kidney bean shaped blob 😆

duc748 · 15/03/2024 12:51

Froodwithatowel · 15/03/2024 12:26

There comes a point where this has been explained so much, so many times in so many places that a journalist still failing to get it is either quite worryingly dim witted, or is writing propaganda rather than journalism.

I think you can make a case for both, Frood!

TathingScinsel · 15/03/2024 12:55

Speaking of Keira I listened to a chat between her, Ritchie Tulip and Sinead Watson just last night. They were admirably frank about the realities of living in bodies that have been harmed by medicalised gender transition.
The lack of any medical support pathways for detrans people is proper alarming, seems their GPs want to help but are clueless about how to do so.

(Coming back with a link)

NoBinturongsHereMate · 15/03/2024 13:26

Brefugee · 15/03/2024 10:52

i would also expect to see fewer trans men for lots of reasons. I think quite a few are into women so less chance of pregnancy. Some, of course, have had radical surgery and can't get pegnant. Some are very very careful with contraception because they don't want to have to face the consequences of being a pregnant man (dysphoria - of course they want to avoid just about the most female thing you can do) etc etc.

I don't really understand why the immediate thought there is that they must be presenting as women for an abortion. it makes no sense, although of course it may also be possible in some/many cases.

Also, if they are on cross sex hormones or were previously on puberty blockers they are likely to have reduced fertility.

Shroedy · 15/03/2024 13:56

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia no, he's a solicitor not a barrister so the cab rank rule is irrelevant.

And @IcakethereforeIam IAAL and no, it isn't libel in any way.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 15/03/2024 14:07

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/03/2024 12:39

I don't think Williams will ever reverse ferret, she doesn't have the integrity. She once claimed she thought the idea of women only spaces was ridiculous but in 2013 it turned out she had actually written an approving article about women only gyms.

We'll see, but my expectation is that she will never admit she was wrong, but that many of her current standpoints will be quietly dropped, as the associated harms become ever clearer.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 15/03/2024 14:10

TathingScinsel · 15/03/2024 12:55

Speaking of Keira I listened to a chat between her, Ritchie Tulip and Sinead Watson just last night. They were admirably frank about the realities of living in bodies that have been harmed by medicalised gender transition.
The lack of any medical support pathways for detrans people is proper alarming, seems their GPs want to help but are clueless about how to do so.

(Coming back with a link)

Bit harsh. There is no recognised medical pathway for supporting detransitioners. I'm not sure how GPs could be expected to know something that even the soi-disant gender experts don't? That doesn't make them clueless.

No doubt, in the US, a lot of endocrinologists and plastic surgeons will make a fortune, undoing (to the limited extent possible), the harm done by their colleagues.

TathingScinsel · 15/03/2024 14:21

I just meant ‘clueless on how to help’ due the the lack of pathways - didn’t mean to be harsh, I actually think it’s utterly shit that GPs are being landed with the mess that gender specialists have made with no support or training, especially as the patient cohort already has significant vulnerabilities.

Justwrong68 · 15/03/2024 14:22

She sounds unhinged in this discussion

Missmarple87 · 15/03/2024 15:09

For someone who has hitched their wagon to the 'non-binary' train, Zoe Williams sure seems to have difficulty applying the concept to viewpoints or philosophical concepts.

Geebray · 15/03/2024 15:12

Eons ago Zoe Williams used to shill her private life out by writing a dating column for the Evening Standard (back when it was an actual newspaper, not a freesheet). She was amusing then. It's so sad to see what's happened to her.

I do wonder how much she is striking an attitude in order to try and stay relevant?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/03/2024 15:27

Where is she getting this nonsense about "since 2019 you haven't been allowed to go to a women's prison unless you have medically transitioned?" The rules were only changed much more recently.

SinnerBoy · 15/03/2024 16:40

Geebray · Today 15:12

Eons ago Zoe Williams used to shill her private life out by writing a dating column for the Evening Standard (back when it was an actual newspaper, not a freesheet). She was amusing then. It's so sad to see what's happened to her.

I didn't know that, I only know her from The Gruinard. I used to find her quite amusing and whimsical, many years ago. Not now...

TathingScinsel · 15/03/2024 17:24

I wonder if ZW is one of the many media luvvy types who has a nonbinary-indigo-child in their immediate family?

duc748 · 15/03/2024 17:28

She was certainly one of the first women ever to have a baby, as I recall.

Brefugee · 15/03/2024 17:35
Shirley Temple Giggle GIF

.

Geebray · 15/03/2024 17:41

SinnerBoy · 15/03/2024 16:40

Geebray · Today 15:12

Eons ago Zoe Williams used to shill her private life out by writing a dating column for the Evening Standard (back when it was an actual newspaper, not a freesheet). She was amusing then. It's so sad to see what's happened to her.

I didn't know that, I only know her from The Gruinard. I used to find her quite amusing and whimsical, many years ago. Not now...

Yeah, I'm not imagining it, I just checked Wikipedia.

She is also a columnist for the London Evening Standard for which she was a diarist writing about being a single woman in London.

She used to be amusing. Not she's just shouty.