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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jess Philips on VAWG and single sex spaces.

176 replies

ArabellaScott · 24/02/2024 11:19

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/02/24/jess-phillips-lindsay-hoyle-jo-cox-murder-gaza-vote/

Interviewed in the Telegraph, including on VAWG, and trans issues. Archived in the usual places.

'Would she still like to be prime minister? “I’d still give it a crack, sure!” she says, firmly. “I used to want to be the home secretary. But I’ve learnt I don’t have that special skill of plotting, organising for your own progression that you need to get on. Women are less interested in that than men. My only ambition in politics is to halve the levels of violence experienced by women and girls in a decade. Despite two women dying every week there is still <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.is/o/X8IhI/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/09/jess-philips-womens-lives-risk-failure-reform-child-payouts/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">no strategy or target around femicide. We live in a patriarchy still. It is 2024 but all our institutions are based on a 1950s, or 1850s or even 1750s ideal that doesn’t work for women.”

Prior to becoming an MP she worked for Women’s Aid and ran rape crisis refuges. I believe her when she says it is her life’s purpose. Phillips is a rare bird in today’s politics – a confident, clever working-class woman.

So where is she on trans issues, how has her work on protecting women been affected by this debate? “The actual work hasn’t been affected at all. The political space has undoubtedly been affected, not all negatively.” Can she still speak about women? “Of course! I feel totally comfortable speaking out about women – sometimes when I talk about women that means different things. I am capable of holding two ideas in my head at once… I believe in single sex spaces for biological women, prisons, refuges etc. – 100 per cent. I’ve got the T-shirt on that. But also, if someone asks me to refer to them as a woman, I personally will do that. I’ll call you whatever you ask me to. <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.is/o/X8IhI/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/04/09/jess-phillips-no-trans-person-met-has-said-cant-say-woman/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">I am happy to refer to transwomen as women. But also the idea that I am meant to parrot ‘transwomen are women’ as a slogan is f-g meaningless.” Classic Phillips. Having her cake and eating it.

“When I worked in women’s refuges, we always asked questions on the referral forms about people’s sex at birth, whether people had transitioned, basically. The language we used would probably get you sent to the gallows now.” She smiles and goes into a long explanation about how “there are all sorts of reasons why women who are referred might not be allowed in a refuge, not just trans. For instance, if a woman had a 14-year-old son with her, she wouldn’t be allowed in the main women’s refuge centre, she would be cared for in dispersed houses within the community with supervision so she could stay with her son. Or women with child protection issues or those with substance abuse issues.

This is Parliament’s responsibility, it’s up to the legislature to make it clear. She stresses that it is disabled women, older women and those with complex needs who have “the hardest time accessing the right kind of safe spaces… We need to have women’s biological spaces, but also when I was on Birmingham City Council, I commissioned domestic refuges for LGBTQ+ folk, particularly men beaten up by their partners. It should not be beyond the wit of man to protect women’s biological sex spaces and provide different spaces for trans people.”'

Jess Phillips: ‘Lindsay Hoyle is obsessed with security after Jo Cox – that’s why he acted that way’

The MP for Yardley discusses her late night phone calls with Priti Patel and why saying ‘transwomen are women’ is meaningless

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/02/24/jess-phillips-lindsay-hoyle-jo-cox-murder-gaza-vote

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Floisme · 24/02/2024 20:05

I would want nothing to do with monitoring anyone's private, personal interactions. It's in the public sphere, where people are acting in an official or professional capacity (e.g. politics, law courts, journalism, health) where I think clarity of language is important.

EmpressaurusOfTheScathingTinsel · 24/02/2024 20:21

PP82 · 24/02/2024 17:11

Eugenicists used to think they were frightfully modern and progressive and that anyone who disagreed with them was out if step with modern scientific thinking.

And now people think it’s modern and progressive to ‘fix’ children who don’t match the stereotypes associated with their sex by giving them drugs, hormones and eventual surgery.

Lovely.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 24/02/2024 20:30

PP82 · 24/02/2024 18:43

You're easily amused.

Possibly, but RTB has made my day. I generally think my son’s situation is no laughing matter, and its effect on our family is devastating, but it’s always good if some joy comes out of a bad set of circumstances.

I can assure you that I am under a lot of pressure to pretend that my son is my daughter, and that causes me a lot of distress and has led to some extremely dark thoughts at times. Creating hierarchies of oppression where some groups are de facto “the most marginalised” is something I now utterly reject, because it ignores the reality of individual histories and experiences.

Undoubtedly my wife and I are privileged in some respects, but that doesn’t mean we inevitably suffer less than people who are higher up in the oppression stakes. In fact, the axes of oppression would mean that we are lower than my son because he earns more than we ever did, but higher because he thinks he is transgender, but lower because we are elderly and he’s in the prime of life, but on the same level because we are from the same ethnic origin. It’s all meaningless compared with the physical reality we each have to live with.

It is not reasonable to demand that everyone else has to perceive someone and relate to him according to his own perception of his identity. That’s not how healthy relationships work. We relate to people as we see them, not as they see themselves. If I were to meet Donald Trump, I would not relate to him as he sees himself. I might give him more respect than he deserves, and not tell him what I think of him, but I would not metaphorically bend the knee to the once and future President of the United States of America. I’d be more likely to turn my back on him, despite the poor chap being a badly brought up grifter who can’t help being a prat.

mumda · 24/02/2024 21:07

Does she mean single spaces for women or single spaces for people who say they're women.

I suspect she's speaking in a positive but not entirely convincing way.

Liebour.

JanesLittleGirl · 24/02/2024 22:14

PP82 is cosplaying as an anarchist while being a heteronormative member of conventional society what with having a husband and using private healthcare to acquire a baby.

RedToothBrush · 24/02/2024 22:22

Floisme · 24/02/2024 20:05

I would want nothing to do with monitoring anyone's private, personal interactions. It's in the public sphere, where people are acting in an official or professional capacity (e.g. politics, law courts, journalism, health) where I think clarity of language is important.

In terms of clarity of language, the following is true:

The law does not work if you do not have definitions which are fixed and are contested in any way. Language must be set out in a way which leaves as little ambiguity as possible. This is what we see happening with the language creep of the word woman and the failure to include the word biological (which when the act was not felt to be necessary as there was no controversy about the word woman) and the acceptance of everyday use of the words gender and sex interchangably when the correct legal word is sex and this matters in practice because of the difference in the words. Without this there is chaos (and a shitload of court cases in order to try and establish the clarity of the language and understanding of the law).

In politics, the use of words matters for a variety of reasons. Firstly you need to use language which is most widely understood AND is appropriate for the situation. Politicians when communicating with the public SHOULD use simple language to convey messages so as many people as possible understand the message. Donald Trump is actually a really good example of this - his word usage is at a lower educational level than any of his rivals and this helps him communicate with sections of the public who find 'word salad' inaccessable or elitest. The problem that this can create is over simplication of a subject and reducing very complex issues or ideas to very short slogans which then leaves them open to interpretation by the public or they become thought terminating - and as such they tend to lend themselves to being directives or orders of an authoritive nature (think of 'Get Brexit Done', 'Stay home, protect the NHS, save lives' or 'Hands, Face, Space'). Transwomen are women is another example of this in as such it carries that authoritarianism, which is about controlling others. This matters and is important and relevant, especially when we start to talk about 'polite usage'. The context of 'polite usage' is against this directive - and as such this adds to the social conditioning of the public to 'follow the crowd' as we have been conditioned to 'obey the directive'.

The hardest thing for politicians is to convey complex messages in simple words accurately. To do this they SHOULD be using the legally accurate words, both in parliamentary contexts AS WELL AS to the public. Why? Well to lead by example and to accurately reflect the law. However there are reasons in politics to deliberately confuse the message to the public and to force language creep. This is ALWAYS nefarious in nature as it is to hide something or change power dynamics for advantage and is actively in practice, therefore 'going against the law and the principles of the law'. This is why clarity of language ALWAYS matters.

In terms of the media, the principle jobs of the media in a democracy is in theory to hold power to account, to convey messages to the public and to reflect the grassroots feeling of the public. There is this idea that the traditional media controlled the public too - in the UK this isn't strictly true and is a bit more complex than that and the advent of social media has changed this. Newspapers couldn't make money unless the public were happy with them - hence why if there is a big scandal, the public get invested because they feel they have a vested interest, and this sells newspapers. Its therefore a symbotic relationship - a newspaper must satisfy its audience and if it doesn't reflect its audience its going to find out very quickly from dropping revenue. A newspaper editor can nudge an idea, but only to a limited degree. In more authoritarian countries newspapers are more beholden to the state and if they fail to adhere to the state they are punished in that way too.

In the UK we have a general expectation of holding power to account though (how well this works in practice is another matter!) The way the British media use words is subtule but important though, because they do convey bias - this is where the anti-trans v womens rights thing matters. Its always worth looking for this and to be aware of this.

This is also why pronouns matter though. Media reports are conveying a message. Saying 'she' murdered when it was a male, is deeply misleading to the public. Its in effect a distortion of data. If we are talking about hold power to account, the accuracy of reporting matters. What is more important here - politeness or accuracy? Is using pronouns an act of political bias, because its not reflecting reality accurately? Is it misleading the public deliberately?

Whats interesting is how the Daily Mail IS using 'polite pronouns' but makes a point of illustrating the sex of focus of the story in other ways. It almost over emphases the pronouns to make a point. I'd argue this is reflective of a grassroots backlash of being asked by authority to ignore what you see before you and to comply.

Social media throws a right spanner in the works of settled balance between editor and public. The power dynamics have changed and 'everyone is an editor looking to influence' now; theres are no real contraints on this. Its easy to fall into an echochamber and never get out. No one is looking for reality or truth to understand the world, they are just creating their own personal fictions to further themselves. There isn't a universality which reality provides and we still actually need for stability.

In healthcare accurate use of language without confusion is essential in some high risk urgent situations. If you have to piss about trying to establish the sex of someone you might miss something crucial or give an over/under dose. Politeness has no place in high pressure life or death scenarios. Studies rely on accuracy of data - if just one person falsely gives gender rather than their sex, it can screw the findings of an entire (expensive) study with huge implications.

We also have the issue of consent and communicating health messages with accuracy. If you fail to do this, you could be harming, traumatising or otherwise putting a person at risk. Issues over educational level and language barriers remain highly relevant. Using a bunch of word salad to describe parts of a woman rather than simply 'woman' close communication and understanding channels down (see point above about how Trump opens those channels). This can therefore be a power to control the behaviour of others in a pretty toxic way - it carries the risk of increasing inequality with only those who have privilege fully understanding the messages. Confusing messages which lead to situations where someone does not fully comprehend the situation raise ethical issues over whether someone has been able to consent. Lack of proper consent can cause trauma related responses.

If pronouns were irrelevant and just about being nice we wouldn't see these type of issues clash arising and the importance of language.

And finally, this concept of 'polite usage'. This generally relies on crowd control and power politics of all of the above related issues. If you feel pressure in any way to use pronouns out of politeness and against what you see, you may harm yourself in the process in a huge amount of ways by confusing how others understand the world. It is massively about power and control. Pronouns are not used by the subject, they are for someone else to use. Its a reflection of relational dynamics. The concept of 'who decides' what pronouns are used is reflective of those power dynamics. It IS coercive, if people feel they HAVE to go along with something out of fear of judgment by society.

Remember the default is to be nice to others (as it should be), but its easy to be percieved as being nasty in this context, when your intention is purely to be accurate. Again this is about politeness being weaponised as a way to destroy the truth. The truth is the thing that protects us from abuses of power.

I use the example of my brother: there are people who tell me I should use the pronouns he wants to be respectful and polite. How is that respectful and polite to me? It states that his want to reflect his fantasy is more important than the lived experience of mine - since our identity isn't just individual but relational it matters - when people ask you whether you have a brother or sister they are not just asking a question, they are trying to build relational bonds of understanding. It is inaccurate for me to say I have a sister, because someone is looking to communicate through shared experiences and understanding. This effect is perhaps more pronounced and apparent when it comes to parent / child relationships - again theres uses of power and safeguarding.

This ISN'T about purity spirals. This is about communication and collective understandings and how this is important to society. Its about this concept of the truth being protective, safeguarding and holding power to account and the destruction of the truth to increase power and control in an authoritive way.

Anyone who says pronouns don't matter and we should be polite and respectful in all situations knows fuck all about how we communicate, how society works and how power is conveyed and held onto.

Women who are always at risk from male behaviour, and give away the power of the truth in order to be polite, do so at their own peril.

Orwell wrote at length about the dangers of the authoritarian left and how he felt British Society with its desire to conform (perhaps to polite society) was vulnerable to it. He wrote about it immediately after WWII when the dangers of the authoritarism of the far right were well known and understood. He was from the left, but saw the danger of the far left. He understood the power of words and communication and how they can be misused. He's still very much relevant today.

Words still matter. Who controls language and words matter. Language creep should be observed with concern for good reason as its the tool of authoritarians looking to control others outside the bounds of the law. Being polite about it, should therefore be the bottom of your priority list.

But hell, of course I'm just a Nazi.

RedToothBrush · 24/02/2024 22:24

And with that soap box rant, I'm off to bed. Present has be successfully ordered.

JanesLittleGirl · 24/02/2024 22:32

RedToothBrush · 24/02/2024 22:22

In terms of clarity of language, the following is true:

The law does not work if you do not have definitions which are fixed and are contested in any way. Language must be set out in a way which leaves as little ambiguity as possible. This is what we see happening with the language creep of the word woman and the failure to include the word biological (which when the act was not felt to be necessary as there was no controversy about the word woman) and the acceptance of everyday use of the words gender and sex interchangably when the correct legal word is sex and this matters in practice because of the difference in the words. Without this there is chaos (and a shitload of court cases in order to try and establish the clarity of the language and understanding of the law).

In politics, the use of words matters for a variety of reasons. Firstly you need to use language which is most widely understood AND is appropriate for the situation. Politicians when communicating with the public SHOULD use simple language to convey messages so as many people as possible understand the message. Donald Trump is actually a really good example of this - his word usage is at a lower educational level than any of his rivals and this helps him communicate with sections of the public who find 'word salad' inaccessable or elitest. The problem that this can create is over simplication of a subject and reducing very complex issues or ideas to very short slogans which then leaves them open to interpretation by the public or they become thought terminating - and as such they tend to lend themselves to being directives or orders of an authoritive nature (think of 'Get Brexit Done', 'Stay home, protect the NHS, save lives' or 'Hands, Face, Space'). Transwomen are women is another example of this in as such it carries that authoritarianism, which is about controlling others. This matters and is important and relevant, especially when we start to talk about 'polite usage'. The context of 'polite usage' is against this directive - and as such this adds to the social conditioning of the public to 'follow the crowd' as we have been conditioned to 'obey the directive'.

The hardest thing for politicians is to convey complex messages in simple words accurately. To do this they SHOULD be using the legally accurate words, both in parliamentary contexts AS WELL AS to the public. Why? Well to lead by example and to accurately reflect the law. However there are reasons in politics to deliberately confuse the message to the public and to force language creep. This is ALWAYS nefarious in nature as it is to hide something or change power dynamics for advantage and is actively in practice, therefore 'going against the law and the principles of the law'. This is why clarity of language ALWAYS matters.

In terms of the media, the principle jobs of the media in a democracy is in theory to hold power to account, to convey messages to the public and to reflect the grassroots feeling of the public. There is this idea that the traditional media controlled the public too - in the UK this isn't strictly true and is a bit more complex than that and the advent of social media has changed this. Newspapers couldn't make money unless the public were happy with them - hence why if there is a big scandal, the public get invested because they feel they have a vested interest, and this sells newspapers. Its therefore a symbotic relationship - a newspaper must satisfy its audience and if it doesn't reflect its audience its going to find out very quickly from dropping revenue. A newspaper editor can nudge an idea, but only to a limited degree. In more authoritarian countries newspapers are more beholden to the state and if they fail to adhere to the state they are punished in that way too.

In the UK we have a general expectation of holding power to account though (how well this works in practice is another matter!) The way the British media use words is subtule but important though, because they do convey bias - this is where the anti-trans v womens rights thing matters. Its always worth looking for this and to be aware of this.

This is also why pronouns matter though. Media reports are conveying a message. Saying 'she' murdered when it was a male, is deeply misleading to the public. Its in effect a distortion of data. If we are talking about hold power to account, the accuracy of reporting matters. What is more important here - politeness or accuracy? Is using pronouns an act of political bias, because its not reflecting reality accurately? Is it misleading the public deliberately?

Whats interesting is how the Daily Mail IS using 'polite pronouns' but makes a point of illustrating the sex of focus of the story in other ways. It almost over emphases the pronouns to make a point. I'd argue this is reflective of a grassroots backlash of being asked by authority to ignore what you see before you and to comply.

Social media throws a right spanner in the works of settled balance between editor and public. The power dynamics have changed and 'everyone is an editor looking to influence' now; theres are no real contraints on this. Its easy to fall into an echochamber and never get out. No one is looking for reality or truth to understand the world, they are just creating their own personal fictions to further themselves. There isn't a universality which reality provides and we still actually need for stability.

In healthcare accurate use of language without confusion is essential in some high risk urgent situations. If you have to piss about trying to establish the sex of someone you might miss something crucial or give an over/under dose. Politeness has no place in high pressure life or death scenarios. Studies rely on accuracy of data - if just one person falsely gives gender rather than their sex, it can screw the findings of an entire (expensive) study with huge implications.

We also have the issue of consent and communicating health messages with accuracy. If you fail to do this, you could be harming, traumatising or otherwise putting a person at risk. Issues over educational level and language barriers remain highly relevant. Using a bunch of word salad to describe parts of a woman rather than simply 'woman' close communication and understanding channels down (see point above about how Trump opens those channels). This can therefore be a power to control the behaviour of others in a pretty toxic way - it carries the risk of increasing inequality with only those who have privilege fully understanding the messages. Confusing messages which lead to situations where someone does not fully comprehend the situation raise ethical issues over whether someone has been able to consent. Lack of proper consent can cause trauma related responses.

If pronouns were irrelevant and just about being nice we wouldn't see these type of issues clash arising and the importance of language.

And finally, this concept of 'polite usage'. This generally relies on crowd control and power politics of all of the above related issues. If you feel pressure in any way to use pronouns out of politeness and against what you see, you may harm yourself in the process in a huge amount of ways by confusing how others understand the world. It is massively about power and control. Pronouns are not used by the subject, they are for someone else to use. Its a reflection of relational dynamics. The concept of 'who decides' what pronouns are used is reflective of those power dynamics. It IS coercive, if people feel they HAVE to go along with something out of fear of judgment by society.

Remember the default is to be nice to others (as it should be), but its easy to be percieved as being nasty in this context, when your intention is purely to be accurate. Again this is about politeness being weaponised as a way to destroy the truth. The truth is the thing that protects us from abuses of power.

I use the example of my brother: there are people who tell me I should use the pronouns he wants to be respectful and polite. How is that respectful and polite to me? It states that his want to reflect his fantasy is more important than the lived experience of mine - since our identity isn't just individual but relational it matters - when people ask you whether you have a brother or sister they are not just asking a question, they are trying to build relational bonds of understanding. It is inaccurate for me to say I have a sister, because someone is looking to communicate through shared experiences and understanding. This effect is perhaps more pronounced and apparent when it comes to parent / child relationships - again theres uses of power and safeguarding.

This ISN'T about purity spirals. This is about communication and collective understandings and how this is important to society. Its about this concept of the truth being protective, safeguarding and holding power to account and the destruction of the truth to increase power and control in an authoritive way.

Anyone who says pronouns don't matter and we should be polite and respectful in all situations knows fuck all about how we communicate, how society works and how power is conveyed and held onto.

Women who are always at risk from male behaviour, and give away the power of the truth in order to be polite, do so at their own peril.

Orwell wrote at length about the dangers of the authoritarian left and how he felt British Society with its desire to conform (perhaps to polite society) was vulnerable to it. He wrote about it immediately after WWII when the dangers of the authoritarism of the far right were well known and understood. He was from the left, but saw the danger of the far left. He understood the power of words and communication and how they can be misused. He's still very much relevant today.

Words still matter. Who controls language and words matter. Language creep should be observed with concern for good reason as its the tool of authoritarians looking to control others outside the bounds of the law. Being polite about it, should therefore be the bottom of your priority list.

But hell, of course I'm just a Nazi.

You beautiful explainer. Thank you 💕

literalviolence · 24/02/2024 22:44

People who can't understand the central importance of clear and unambiguous language for creating and enforcing laws which protect vulnerable people have no place in positions of power.

duc748 · 24/02/2024 23:29

Old George got most things right, didn't he? Not least, how crucial language, and the control of it, is. That is indeed all beautifully put, @RedToothBrush .

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 25/02/2024 00:52

Good post red.

I think many are using pronoun politeness to avoid that fact that we are actually taking about men wanting to be referred to as women. If its just about pronouns, 'She's the man standing by the bookcase' would be polite and acceptable. But we know its not just pronoun politeness thats expected, its noun politeness, too.

Jess phillips and other MPs may have various definitions of women in their head, and an understanding to which should be included in different women only spaces. But how is that complexity to be written into law when we only have female, women, biological to use. How can we maintain the distinction between men and women when the same politicians expect the public not the use the distinction in everyday life?

IwantToRetire · 25/02/2024 01:16

Sorry have only read first and last page of this quite long thread, but from the extract from the news paper JP clearly talks about how refuges ask the question of sex registered at birth, although admits some might find it hard to do this today.

And I am not a fan of JP, but she is quite clear and was one of the better speakers are the parliament debate re reforming the EA that she thinks women should have acess to single sex services (ie biological sex as permitted under the EA).

However, she also doesn't think it is a problem to address a man who thinks he is a woman with female pronouns. ie similar to say the position of WPUK.

Not sure why this is being discussed again.

Of course if she was, in spite of her postion in the Labour Party, to say it is ridiculous to expect anyone to use the pronouns of the sex they weren't born that would be news!!

Just wish in her position within Labour she would spend time educating members of the Labour party, particularly Councillors who cut funding to women only services, as to why they are essential.

Datun · 25/02/2024 04:20

As I've said on another thread, I'd set a lot more store by preferred pronouns being a matter of politeness if, when women didn't use them, they weren't hounded, fired, beaten, arrested, or vilified by a judge.

Zodfa · 25/02/2024 08:39

Imagine a husband who demands his wife phrase every request to him with "please" and that she address him as "sir". Doubtless he would claim he only cares about "politeness", but I imagine most of us would see it as abuse.

Calling people "woman" when they aren't implies there's something more to womanhood than biology. In other contexts this is considered sexism.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 25/02/2024 08:50

but from the extract from the news paper JP clearly talks about how refuges ask the question of sex registered at birth, although admits some might find it hard to do this today.

They can ask the question, but how can they confirm the answer? How do women accessing the service know if they do actually turn men away?

Politicians are stating the law, rather than explaining how these laws work in practice. Its disingenuous of jess not to acknowledge this. Its also telling that she ignores the majority of single sex services where any checks would be more difficult and the legalities of single sex services more ambiguous.

RedToothBrush · 25/02/2024 08:58

Datun · 25/02/2024 04:20

As I've said on another thread, I'd set a lot more store by preferred pronouns being a matter of politeness if, when women didn't use them, they weren't hounded, fired, beaten, arrested, or vilified by a judge.

Quite.

It simply isn't about politeness and we need to be really clear about this. It's about power and control over women.

We also are NOT having the same level of debate over the word 'man' and that is also telling.

I understand to an extent why someone trans might want to feel more in control, but it still a demand with implicit threats and socialised coercion behind it. It's really not ok. It's an issue for them to deal with, not me to facilitate.

We need to be allowed to reject other people's pronouns without it being deemed criminal. There is a difference between harassment and assertion of personal boundaries and being unwilling to adhere to someone else's faith if you believe it is harmful to you.

The following still holds true, to me: 'If you can force others to say what they know not to be true, you have power over them'.

It's that simple and that's my problem.

This isn't about purity spirals. It's about the need for clear definitions and clear communication and balancing the needs of everyone. You can't do this with this idea of 'politeness' and muddied ideas of male and female when sex has not changed in practice and has remained constant.

I grow tired of the idea that women are just men without dicks or a fluffy feeling in your head. That doesn't change the sexual functions and reproductive organs and function (including absence of function) of women. We are not a bonus hole. We are not menstruaters either - which is utterly deeming. We are physically smaller on average than men and our skeletal structure is different. We can take less force to our bodies than men. Hormones do not change this. Surgery does not change this. Our cells behave differently to mens - numerous drug studies illustrate this. We present with different symptoms for the same diseases, and this different is often not known or totally overlooked by doctors. We are women and this still matters.

If it's about power and control over women, it is impossible for there to be respect for women and the difficulties they may face in life due to their sex (not gender). All of the issues that are overlooked when you ignore and try pretend sex doesn't matter become invisible. If you can't see sex, you can't see sexism. How is that 'polite' and 'respectful'? Again this is problematic and is very clearly explicit sexism. It certainly isn't progressive as it takes efforts to recognise these issues completely back to the start. We just aren't acknowledging it at this point. Worse still we are seeing continued harassment of people to force them to use pronouns. Again this isn't being recognised.

We need to stop pandering to the concept that pronouns are anything to do with politeness and respect. They just aren't.

RedToothBrush · 25/02/2024 09:08

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 25/02/2024 08:50

but from the extract from the news paper JP clearly talks about how refuges ask the question of sex registered at birth, although admits some might find it hard to do this today.

They can ask the question, but how can they confirm the answer? How do women accessing the service know if they do actually turn men away?

Politicians are stating the law, rather than explaining how these laws work in practice. Its disingenuous of jess not to acknowledge this. Its also telling that she ignores the majority of single sex services where any checks would be more difficult and the legalities of single sex services more ambiguous.

Yep.

One of the issues with law is how it works in practice and how accessible and easy it is for someone to check if the law is being adhered to.

Laws preventing sexism in the workplace are already on of those which can be difficult for the most vulnerable women to enforce. Especially if they don't speak English well. And as all these court cases demonstrate, they cost money.

What we are seeing is women who even try and clarify an organisation's policy on certain aspects of women's rights and protections are being clearly harassed and forced out of jobs for doing so. There's no way the Jess Phillips is unaware of this given her background.

We need the law not only to be clear, but also to work for us. If it's not clear it's much easier for organisations to abuse it. Stonewall has damn well made sure of that. It has definitions of homosexuality which are homophobic which have formed part of its training programme and are taken as gospel over and above the law.

Again politeness and respect mean nothing if the law is being ignored and you are being told to be silent and are not allowed to ask about women's single sex rights in the workplace.

Chaffgoldffinch · 25/02/2024 09:30

This interview with Jess Phillips is one of a series of statements from Labour slowly backing single sex spaces.

BUT they are still blethering on about making it easier to 'transition'. Even with single sex exemptions in the EA2010 it is difficult for service providers to enforce single sex spaces if there is any ambiguity about men being legal women. Labour still think they can square the circle.

Either gender recognition has legal force or it doesn't. Either women's spaces can be invaded by men or they can't. Which is it to be Jess? I think she's hinting that it's the latter but still can't bear to admit that gender recognition is a nonsense.

(Which is not say the Tories are not problematic, wringing their hands over the ideology that has infected institutions under their watch)

Cancelledcurio · 25/02/2024 09:44

Indeed,@RoyalCorgi my thoughts exactly.
Personally, I can't be arsed with Jess and hanging around willing her to "get it". She knows fine well the issues involves and plays to what ever audience is watching. Career politican first and foremost.

RedToothBrush · 25/02/2024 10:35

So we are currently seeing a bill in progress in parliament over convention therapy. Here's Dennis to explain a few points and why it's very relevant to this thread:

Dennis Noel Kavanagh AT Jebadoo2
1/ I've completed a legal analysis of the Commons Private Member's Bill I did for GMN from the perspective of how the legislation works (or doesn't) as a criminal statute. You can read the somewhat detailed analysis here on my substack.
^dennisnoelkavanagh.substack.com/?utm_source=navbar&utm_medium=web&r=rdu7p^

2/ The final draft of the bill (version 7) is available here and there's a copy of the text of the bill as Annex A to the substack piece.
^www.russell-moyle.co.uk/conversion/^

3/ My basic conclusion is this. This bill is very different to its House of Lords or Scottish counterparts and it clear that real listening and discussion has taken place with many legitimate concerns reflected in the draft and efforts made to address them.

4/ While these efforts are a great sign and very welcome, I leave the draft with serious reservations in a number of respects. First, core terms like "sexual orientation" and "transgender identity" are not defined and they ought to be.

5/ Second, the words "supress" and "identity" in the conversion practices offence definition in clause 4 are very wide and potentially cast the net of criminal liability into places no one really intends that it should land.

6/ Third, that the statutory defences in clause 1(2), while well intentioned, are sometimes ineffective because of circularity or clear lacuna in law (such as the familial exemption being predicated on exercising parental responsibility.

7/ This is my first draft of this advice as the final bill was only released today, I plan to return to this subject specifically from my home territory as a practitioner, that is to say the interface between criminal law and human rights.

8/ On a positive note, I should say the commons debate is markedly different to Scotland and the Lords. I'm hopeful as there is a real sense legitimate concerns are being taken seriously and it's positive to see attempt to address them.

9/ Finally, I emphasise this analysis is confined to the efficacy of the bill as a criminal statute, the wider politics (about which there is a lot to say) are a subject for another document, one I will work on this weekend :)

See points 4 and 5 and think about the consequences of 'open' definitions.

When you read the details of his article which is difficult to understand as a layman not versed in law it's really quite alarming in a number of ways.

My selected highlights given that Jess tells us that pronouns are merely polite and respectful and it's not about power whilst she will be voting on this Bill at some point.

3. Outside of classic criminal offences (such as gross negligence manslaughter[2]), it is unusual for criminal liability to be countenanced by legislators for clinical, familial or social interactions without demonstrable clear harm and a consensus around that harm (see, for example the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003). Criminal statutes ordinarily feature a higher harm threshold beyond the sort of conduct that would be dealt with via a professional regulator. Such statutes are also ordinarily drafted with Human Rights obligations in mind and the risk of a party seeking a “declaration of incompatibility” from the High Court via s.4 of the Human Rights Act 1998. The creation of criminal statutes is one of the most serious and important matters legislators deal with, for this reason criminal offences (and defences) are overwhelmingly contained in statute and not secondary legislation such as statutory instruments.

Define harm. What is harm? Is it only psychical? Psychological harm. How do you measure it and fairly assess the impact? We already have this social debate amongst generations about the pathologising of a lack of resilience and resistance to the word no as 'hurt'

4. Given the above, the draft bill is an unusual piece of legislation in four respects. First, it exposes a wide range of people in otherwise lawful settings to potential criminal liability. Second, there is no harm requirement at all. Third, it is far from clear how the bill can be reconciled with the following articles 6 (fair trial), 8 (respect for private and family life), 9 (freedom of thought, conscience and religion) and 10 (freedom of expression). The bill contains a wide “Henry VIII” clause which allows a Secretary of State to modify (and therefore delete if he/she wishes) the proposed “carve outs” at clause 1(2). This represents a highly unusual and undesirable transfer of power from the legislature to the executive in the formation of a criminal offence.

Ooo Henry VIII clauses. Those of you familiar with Brexit may understand the implications here. For those of you who don't, it means a singular minister, without parliamentary or public scrutiny, can come in after the fact and change them. They are fundamentally undemocratic and are risk of abuse by anyone who gets that position using them in a dictatorial or authoritarian way.

What's are the carve out clauses?
10. Clause 1(2) lists a number of circumstances where a Defendant could rely on a statutory defence to rebut the Prosecution case. These defences reflect areas of concern raised with similar legislation and represent an effort to confine the width of the core offence. While the carve outs make some progress in this area as compared to other similar bills, there are still highly problematic areas, some of which render the carve outs ineffective or limited in scope.

So in essence they are exemption clauses which layout defences that can be used. There are quite a few of them but I'll pick out a couple that have caught my eye from what Dennis has said.

Approval/disapproval
13. Clause 1(2) (b) provides that no offence is committed where “a person expresses to another person their disapproval of, or acceptance of, that person’s sexual orientation or transgender identity or lack thereof”. Acceptance and disapproval are not defined within the bill, and it is very difficult to see how an instance of “acceptance” could possibly meet the definition of a “conversion practice” given that concept is predicated on an intent and purpose to change or supress a status. It is likely the word “acceptance” here is otiose.

14. The word “disapproval” in this defence sits in tension with the word “supress” in the interpretation section. By way of an example, a parent of an autistic child wishes them not to privately source puberty blockers and is prosecuted for an activity which is intended and has the purpose of supressing a transgender identity. At trial, the parent relies on the Clause 1(2) (b) defence and invites the tribunal of fact to acquit on the basis they were simply showing “disapproval”. It is unclear how that fact pattern would be resolved by this draft legislation. Accordingly this defence is vague and potentially either very wide such that it would provide a defence in these circumstances or it is very narrow and would extinguish a parent’s rights in these circumstances. In the latter case, such a situation would raise clear Article 8 issues around the right to respect for private and family life.

And then we have health where he details a few points which I summarise a few here:

Health practitioners
15. Clause 1 (2) (b) provides that no offence is committed where:

a health practitioner takes an action in the course of providing a health service, provided that—

(i) the health practitioner complies with regulatory and professional standards and considers in their reasonable professional judgement that it is appropriate to take that action, and

(ii) there was no predetermined outcome in terms of sexual orientation or transgender identity or lack of it at the start of any course of
treatment

This is a complex defence which consists of three concepts, first the meaning of “health practitioner, second the clause 1 (2) (b) (i) requirement of reasonableness and compliance and third the clause 1 (2) (b) (ii) requirement that there be no predetermined outcome.
His key points are

  1. Clause 4 of the bill provides that a “Health Practitioner” “a person who is a member of a body overseen or accredited by the Professional Standards Body for Health and Social Care

It is important to note that none of the bodies mentioned here regulate counselling or therapy, while the Health and Care Professions Council (ix above) regulates practitioner psychologists the wider fields of counselling and therapy are not regulated in the UK and would fall outside this defence

By way of example, a private counsellor who told a young patient to their professional view was that they were suffering internalised homophobia and manifesting a transgender identity as a result could in theory be prosecuted for a single activity intended and having the purpose of supressing a transgender identity. Given the interim Cass report[15] emphasises the importance of multi-disciplinary intervention, counselling and therapy, it is surprising that such services are placed in jeopardy of criminal prosecution

17. It is a defence for a “Health Practitioner” meeting the definition in part 1 to show that they were complying “with regulatory and professional standards and considers in their reasonable professional judgement that it is appropriate to take that action”. Placing a requirement on a Defendant in a criminal matter is known as a “reverse burden of proof” (because the burden of proof ordinarily rests with the prosecution). Reverse burdens are generally considered undesirable as a matter of principle, though it is correct to say that despite this many offences do impose them. Reverse burdens in crime are discharged by a Defendant if they meet the civil, rather than criminal standard of proof, that is to say a Defendant would succeed in discharging this burden where they can prove that their case is more likely than not (“the balance of probabilities”

Reverse burden of proof is a huge one here, when we've had a bunch of cases which have used litigation as a form of harassment. Or when you consider that it's been for women to take others to court to assert their rights / obligations / duties in law. A social worker or councillor nstead of having to demonstrate she was treated unlawfully in a civil job tribunal could instead be taken to criminal court for acting in certain ways.

It gets worse

19. Many private providers in this field follow the WPATH model, NHS practitioners are expected to follow the NHS ISS. The draft bill presently fails to say which standard is intended to ground the Health Practitioner defence. If WPATH service standards constitute a defence, the bill risks entirely undermining the Cass review and thwarting the objective of criminalising a situation in which a young person is subject to a conversion practice whereby cross sex ideation is induced or cultivated. If the NHS ISS service standards are intended to constitute the defence this should be stated in terms, (though it would have the effect of making non-NHS approved practice in this area subject to potential criminal liability, rather than it being a regulatory matter). The second limb of this part of the defence requires that the judgment of the Health Practitioner be reasonable. This is likely to be duplicative and add very little to the first requirement that a Health Practitioner be acting according to regulatory and professional standards.

20. A Health Practitioner completes this defence where they show, on reverse burden, that “there was no predetermined outcome in terms of sexual orientation or transgender identity or lack of it at the start of any course of treatment”. This is a potentially stringent requirement both in the case of clinicians subscribing to the “affirmation only” approach and those adopting the NHS ISS “watchful waiting” approach. In the former case an adherent to “affirmation only” will conceptualise a child’s self-diagnosis as definitive and seek to accelerate progress onto puberty supressing drugs and cross sex hormones, they will in other words have in mind that predetermined outcome. Conversely, a clinician following the NHS ISS may quickly come to the conclusion that diagnostic overshadowing and comorbidities are at play and have the predetermined outcome of avoiding precisely such a medical pathway

If you haven't worked out this is absolute car crash of a bill yet you aren't paying attention. And given that pronouns are a key point of an affirmation only model, they absolutely aren't merely polite - and we have a bill which is currently incoherent at best, contemplating something which might have an impact on the legality or illegality of the use of pronouns with the sword of criminality hanging over it. I have no idea what the implications for teachers are here.

We will carry on:

The “parental responsibility” defence
(Italics start) 24. By clause 1(2) (f) no offence is committed where a Defendant is “a person is exercising parental responsibility for a child” so long as they discharge a reverse burden of showing that “the child’s welfare is the person’s paramount consideration”. There are three clear issues with this defence. First, not all those with caring responsibilities have parental responsibility[18], by law all mothers do, a father will obtain parental responsibility either by marriage prior to the birth or if listed on the child’s birth certificate[19]. It follows that family members outside of the concept of parental responsibility may not rely upon this defence which raises clear Article 8 issues as to respect for private and family life. Second, the defence requires that parental responsibility be “exercised”, parental responsibility is broadly speaking the duty to provide a home for and maintain a child and see to their day-to-day welfare. As children get older, they become more and more competent at law to look after themselves and parental responsibility is thus exercised less. It follows from this that not all Defendants who have parental responsibility under the relevant legislation will necessarily be exercising it
(Italics end - MN being an arse)

Imagine two parents who disagree about their child's care. One wants watchful waiting and the other wants private care on the WPATH pathway. The burden of proof is on the defendant to prove parental responsibility applies and the child isn't gillick competent. And have the funds to match the other parent. Those fucking pronouns matter in a criminal case...

And so we go on with farce of a bill being written by fuckwits who don't comprehend much at all about this subject nevermind how the law works in practice

8. A “conversion practice” is defied in clause 4 of the bill in the following terms.

“conversion practice” means a course of conduct or activity, the predetermined purpose and intent of which is to change someone’s sexual orientation or to change a person to or from being transgender, including to suppress a sexual orientation or transgender identity so that the orientation or identity no longer exists in full or in part

Any bill criminalising an activity, the purpose and intent of which is to supress a transgender identity presumes (prima facie) such an identity exists or is capable of existing. This is a radical departure in law from the present position in the Equality Act 2010 where such identities are not protected characteristics. Following Forstater, it is also clear that such identities are contentious political concepts. It would therefore be a radical departure in terms of the independence of domestic criminal tribunals to try cases on the basis such identities are capable of existing and impermissibly contravene article 6 by compromising the political character of the court. In requiring a court to embrace a politically contested concept where one side of the debate believes in the existence of that concept and one does not, the court becomes, in effect a religious court siding with those who have such a belief. This poses grave and serious questions regarding Articles 9 (freedom of belief) and 10 (expression).

There are serious practical implications to the inclusion of a contested belief in criminal courts. The following points arise:

(i) No juror or Magistrate with the protected characteristic in Forstater could fairly try the proposed offence because they would reject any contention “identity” existed, if such were excluded this would skew the tribunal such that only those believing in the concept of “transgender identity” would be try such cases. That would represent a political selection of a tribunal which is unheard of in law.

(ii) The Crown at law must prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt/so that a jury is sure. As identity is a self-reported phenomenon, only the evidence of a complainant could directly speak to this fact. The defence would be incapable of challenging this evidence beyond obvious instances of self-contradiction or concession. This is highly unusual. The Defence in a criminal trial are ordinarily entitled to call evidence on “facts in issue” as fairness demands both Crown and Defence have an opportunity to be heard on the relevant matters.

(iii) It is unclear whether the Defence might be entitled to call evidence to suggest that “transgender identity” exists or not. If the Defence were so permitted, and called, for example, gender critical authors or thinkers, the jury would be left with the political question as to whether the contested concept were proved. If the Defence were not so allowed, the court would, in effect, be directing the Defence that belief in gender identity ideology was mandatory (and if so the Defendant themselves would be prevented from giving evidence on the point according to the principles of relevance). Both are highly unusual outcomes in criminal courts.

(iv) The bill contains no definition of transgender identity at all. That is highly unusual for a criminal offence to feature a contested and key term and not to define it.

Yes folks. It's that bloody bad. Open ended and riddled with badly defined phrases which make the issues with the Equality Act look miniscule despite the mountain of court cases piling up.

While this is still a bill and not law, I'm struggling to see how it's remotely fixable tbh in the context of fuzzy understanding and willingful ostraiching by politicians intent on saying that pronouns are merely polite and don't contain power. Labour are committed to it, even if the Conservatives don't manage to pass it by the end of this parliamentary session.

FuzzyManul · 25/02/2024 10:52

I use preferred pronouns only when forced to.

duc748 · 25/02/2024 12:04

I'd like to know what JP thinks about the GRA. Dodds says Labour is 'proud' of the Act, and I gather that Labour policy is somehow to 'update' or 'improve' the Act. Is there anything that can be done to improve the Act, Jess, or is it best consigned to the bin?

AdamRyan · 25/02/2024 12:21

Not RTFT but Jess Phillips has been GC for as long as I've followed this debate
E.g Jess has called the demands of transphobic group Woman’s Place UK ‘completely reasonable' (article from 2019, quoting tweet from 2017)

https://gal-dem.com/heres-why-weve-got-no-time-for-jess-phillips/

Arguments she's being politically fickle or "not really GC" are just made up bollocks to fit the narrative that Labour is hostile ro GC women and in JPs case, totally unfair. She's another person (along with Janice Turner) who should be respected for what she's done rather than castigated for "not being GC enough"

Here’s why we’ve got no time for Jess Phillips – gal-dem

https://gal-dem.com/heres-why-weve-got-no-time-for-jess-phillips

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 25/02/2024 13:02

BUT they are still blethering on about making it easier to 'transition'. Even with single sex exemptions in the EA2010 it is difficult for service providers to enforce single sex spaces if there is any ambiguity about men being legal women. Labour still think they can square the circle.

I think the latest buzzword is 'modernise' the GRA.

Allowing men with and without a GRC official female id gives three types of women - cunty ones, grc ones and 'gender reassignment' ones. But theres no way, in the vast majority of times, to distinguish between the last two. On paper theres no way of distinguishing between any definition of women, making it hard to provide ss services.

Politicians are pretending that this isn't happening, and are crossing their fingers hoping that any safeguarding fail doesnt happen on their watch. Or hoping that they can act surprised when it happens and blame other people.

RedToothBrush · 25/02/2024 13:09

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 25/02/2024 13:02

BUT they are still blethering on about making it easier to 'transition'. Even with single sex exemptions in the EA2010 it is difficult for service providers to enforce single sex spaces if there is any ambiguity about men being legal women. Labour still think they can square the circle.

I think the latest buzzword is 'modernise' the GRA.

Allowing men with and without a GRC official female id gives three types of women - cunty ones, grc ones and 'gender reassignment' ones. But theres no way, in the vast majority of times, to distinguish between the last two. On paper theres no way of distinguishing between any definition of women, making it hard to provide ss services.

Politicians are pretending that this isn't happening, and are crossing their fingers hoping that any safeguarding fail doesnt happen on their watch. Or hoping that they can act surprised when it happens and blame other people.

As I say, you can't polish a turd and none of them seem to have grasps how a lack of definition and understanding of balancing needs versus loud demands, makes really bad law that doesn't work in practice.

The trouble with the GRA is it's a legalisation of fantasy which is imposed on others at the expense of reality and is an article of faith.

Faith written into law doesn't have a good track record as being fair or just, particularly to women. Authoritarianism is without exception, tilted heavily in favour of males unfortunately.

Until they understand that reality doesn't just cease due to belief, then it doesn't matter what they write, it's going to cause issues.

Better to write protections for non-conformity and harassment into law as it's much more workable in practice.

Good law stems from reality and observation of reality.

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