Jess Philips on VAWG and single sex spaces.

[ArabellaScott]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/02/24/jess-phillips-lindsay-hoyle-jo-cox-murder-gaza-vote/

Interviewed in the Telegraph, including on VAWG, and trans issues. Archived in the usual places.

'Would she still like to be prime minister? “I’d still give it a crack, sure!” she says, firmly. “I used to want to be the home secretary. But I’ve learnt I don’t have that special skill of plotting, organising for your own progression that you need to get on. Women are less interested in that than men. My only ambition in politics is to halve the levels of violence experienced by women and girls in a decade. Despite two women dying every week there is still <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.is/o/X8IhI/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/09/jess-philips-womens-lives-risk-failure-reform-child-payouts/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">no strategy or target around femicide. We live in a patriarchy still. It is 2024 but all our institutions are based on a 1950s, or 1850s or even 1750s ideal that doesn’t work for women.”

Prior to becoming an MP she worked for Women’s Aid and ran rape crisis refuges. I believe her when she says it is her life’s purpose. Phillips is a rare bird in today’s politics – a confident, clever working-class woman.

So where is she on trans issues, how has her work on protecting women been affected by this debate? “The actual work hasn’t been affected at all. The political space has undoubtedly been affected, not all negatively.” Can she still speak about women? “Of course! I feel totally comfortable speaking out about women – sometimes when I talk about women that means different things. I am capable of holding two ideas in my head at once… I believe in single sex spaces for biological women, prisons, refuges etc. – 100 per cent. I’ve got the T-shirt on that. But also, if someone asks me to refer to them as a woman, I personally will do that. I’ll call you whatever you ask me to. <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.is/o/X8IhI/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/04/09/jess-phillips-no-trans-person-met-has-said-cant-say-woman/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">I am happy to refer to transwomen as women. But also the idea that I am meant to parrot ‘transwomen are women’ as a slogan is f-g meaningless.” Classic Phillips. Having her cake and eating it.

“When I worked in women’s refuges, we always asked questions on the referral forms about people’s sex at birth, whether people had transitioned, basically. The language we used would probably get you sent to the gallows now.” She smiles and goes into a long explanation about how “there are all sorts of reasons why women who are referred might not be allowed in a refuge, not just trans. For instance, if a woman had a 14-year-old son with her, she wouldn’t be allowed in the main women’s refuge centre, she would be cared for in dispersed houses within the community with supervision so she could stay with her son. Or women with child protection issues or those with substance abuse issues.

This is Parliament’s responsibility, it’s up to the legislature to make it clear. She stresses that it is disabled women, older women and those with complex needs who have “the hardest time accessing the right kind of safe spaces… We need to have women’s biological spaces, but also when I was on Birmingham City Council, I commissioned domestic refuges for LGBTQ+ folk, particularly men beaten up by their partners. It should not be beyond the wit of man to protect women’s biological sex spaces and provide different spaces for trans people.”'

I don't agree with everything she says but she has some really good points about safeguarding the most vulnerable women and how that goes as far as saying 14 year old boys are inappropriate in some domestic abuse settings.

She is still doing the cake and eating thing but she is recognising sex and it's important rather than the replacement of sex with gender and that's worthwhile in itself.

This is Parliament’s responsibility, it’s up to the legislature to make it clear. She stresses that it is disabled women, older women and those with complex needs who have “the hardest time accessing the right kind of safe spaces… We need to have women’s biological spaces, but also when I was on Birmingham City Council, I commissioned domestic refuges for LGBTQ+ folk, particularly men beaten up by their partners. It should not be beyond the wit of man to protect women’s biological sex spaces and provide different spaces for trans people.”'

It is, and will remain, "beyond the wit of man" as long as thought-leaders, public services, and major organisations or employers more than 3 words to describe a woman. (No, "not a man" is insufficient.)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7908273/amp/Jess-Phillips-sparks-fury-Mumsnet-saying-trans-women-women.html

what does she say about her previous statement

It is, but it's utterly frustrating that women have had to metaphorically drag her kicking and screaming for years to reach this rather mild dip a toe in the water position.

Prior to becoming an MP she worked for Women’s Aid and ran rape crisis refuges

Is this definitely correct? I thought she was in a related fundraising post (for WA). But wiki says she worked in an admin role for them, and says nothing about rape crisis? Unless I'm missing it. Not much at all on her own page to go on

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jess_Phillips

jessphillips.net

She's the sort of woman's woman you need on your side. Her unwavering support for her colleague Diane Abbott who has faced some of the worst abuse over the years is remarkable. Hang on,

Yes. She has been a coward. She should have been leading from the front instead of dodging the subject. Cos that's literally her job as an MP and this was her speciality. Instead JKR had to step up and say it for her.

It's frustrating, but I do welcome her FINALLY finding a spine as she's clearly got some worthwhile points to help sway the argument.

Does it actually matter if she calls trans women 'women' when she is 100% behind the idea of single sex spaces for biological women.. surely that's what we all want

It seems she has said something supportive but is still getting slammed for not saying it sooner!

Philips is obviously Labour's attempt to win back women. She needs to stop being duplicitous and ingenuous.

I'm with her. We have to be pragmatic about a lot of things. And if she honestly believes what she said about women and single sex spaces - and she is definitely right about disabled women being bottom of the pile of getting what they need and deserve - then I'll go along with it.

Because we are only going to move forwards if we are pragmatic. 3rd spaces. And enforcing single sex spaces for women (and men).

The older I get the more I disagree with the black and white aproach that produces a purity spiral and a good old Maoist let a hundred flowers bloom campaign. I accept and support all the good things Jess does and would vote for her.

I think it does for various reasons, because of how language is about power and control which she should understand.

To illustrate the point I pose the question 'At what point when an allegation of sexual abuse has been made, do you stop using "respectful" pronouns?'

Is It at first arrest? Knowing the number of cases which the CPS won't touch.

Is it when it goes to court? Someone remains innocent until proven guilty and we know the rates of conviction are terrible because of the way the system works so this is also problematic.

Is it at conviction? There is still an impact from pronouns on a victim who has had to go through the whole process tripping over themselves to be respectful to the very person who has harmed them and used power over them.

Of course not all transwomen are sex offenders, but the point remains about not knowing the difference between the 'good ones' and the ones gaming the system for exploitation. If you had the power of pronouns over, especially to people you don't know well, you are handing over power and control to them.

Also see trans widows and the impact on families and how this removes power from them and agency over their own lived experience.

Given her speciality is domestic abuse, she should be familiar with grooming and coercive control - and pronouns are about controlling the language and behaviour of others - and why this isn't a neutral act to 'be nice' about pronouns.

The fact she's still being blind to this, isnt good. But I'll take a shift in her position as a start and hope that if the conversation on this does open up to be controversial, she'll start to find that backbone again.

Ah,the old 'I can hold two thoughts in my head'shtick.

'She's a nice man but she's not allowed into women's spaces'.

We don't have to accept the barest minimum of crumbs and be grateful for it.

As long as this idea that any man can be a woman if he says so persists with the ruling classes women will continue to face problems due to it.

But I’ve learnt I don’t have that special skill of plotting, organising for your own progression that you need to get on.Women are less interested in that than men

Also this - wtf Jp?!

Pronouns are coercive control is one of the most ludicrous takes I've ever read, on anything, and really insulting to those who've experienced actual coercive control. No one should have to be polite to their abuser, sure, but outside of that context pronouns are just politeness. We all have to say things we don't really think or mean every single day. It's part of the functioning of society. If you don't believe TWAW fine, but it's not abusive for people to expect the basic politeness and respect of calling them what they have asked to be called.

Do you have a line in the sand on this belief of politeness at all costs?

Would you play along with a man who identifies as a child for example?

If not would you be contributing to a society that doesn't function? Or do you think it's only okay for some people to decide where that line is and not others?

The safeguarding risks are clearly not the same. We have all sorts of safeguarding in place for children that we don't for adults. Because they are children. Are you suggesting that adult women should not be allowed out alone at night? (I sometimes think that's the logical end point to some 'gender critical' arguments. I literally saw the concept of chaperoning discussed in positive terms the other day.)

That's quite the leap. I've not mentioned anything about women not being allowed out at night

I'm just asking if you have a line in the sand about the type of make believe you are and aren't willing to play along with?

'I believe in single sex spaces for biological women, prisons, refuges etc. – 100 per cent. I’ve got the T-shirt on that.'

This sounds like quite a turnaround. Perhaps she has always thought this but I don't think she has ever said it out loud in this way, especially given she goes on to mention third spaces. I take it Labour have finally read the room. I'm sure far too late for a lot of people and I'm sure they'll still do their best to fence-sit as far as possible but I do think this is positive. I don't think she would say it without confidence that this is now the party line, whatever she says about not being interested in plotting and such.

Getting a bit off topic, but if a GE is called, and Starmer / Sunak are invited to do a Q&A on mumsnet, I doubt they'd be asked "whats your favourite biscuit"

@motheronthedancefloor We all know that's code for 'where do you stand on the trans issue?' and the GC answer is, 'anything by Tunnocks' 😂

No they wouldn't and thank fuck for that. Gone are the days where they think they can win easy votes by blathering on about bourbons or custard creams.

Agreed. Even JP outlined some women's needs albeit she omitted the needs of women of various faiths etc. And, as above, if we can't trust people to state we don't change our biological sex, we can't trust words. And we have to consider who was complicit in the abuse of words that were understood in common until recently.

She stresses that it is disabled women, older women and those with complex needs who have “the hardest time accessing the right kind of safe spaces… We need to have women’s biological spaces

In the same way that the catfishing thread has attracted posters lecturing MNers on the unfairness of wasting a catfisher's time when the catfisher could move on to someone else and make their quota for the day, this thread may well attract posters with a rosy view of JP's activities and the newly discovered need for pragmatism.

ETA catfish thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5014692-i-am-being-catfished-right-now