Explain to me why I can't go topless please.

[catagoryA]

Hypothetical question, as I have no intention of going topless, but I don't understand what is stopping me.

I've had a double mastectomy some years ago. I am still using full swimming costumes on the beach and in swimming pools, rather than just swimming trunks. Also keep my tee shirt on in parks and private gardens when the men are stripping to the waist.

I feel like I have to. I don't know why. I also feel like I want to, so it isn't really an issue as such, but just something I don't understand. My family, when asked, all agree I should keep my chest covered up, even at home. Just as much as if I still had breasts.

There are no breasts to feel modest about. I am not particularly self conscious about scars, and have others I don't hide.

Is it decades of conditioning that I need to keep my top half covered? Or is it that women should cover up to be modest whether there is anything to cover or not?

Do you expect women to wear full chest covering swimming costumes still on the beach and in swimming pools after a double mastectomy? Why or why not?

I hope I have explained my question clearly!

Interesting question and yes, I think it is decades of conditioning.

Rationally I can’t think of a good reason to cover up (both in your case and generally) but societal expectation is for modesty from women when it comes to their chests/breasts.

It's because society tells us that this area of a woman's body will inflame the lusts of men.

Yes, hyperbolic but that's what it comes down to.

It's why you get threads on here expressing disquiet at seeing prepubescent girls without tops on, and why actually having breast tissue to display is neither here nor there.

Even if you've got a completely flat chest it's still a marker for SEX so you must cover it up or woe betide.

C.f Victorians and ankles.

Completely agree , it’s decades of conditioning, being told it’s unacceptable, let’s be honest, it’s still frowned upon by many if women dare to breastfeed in public

Interesting question. Possibly due to the sexulisation of breasts, and the simultaneous control of women's sexuality with concepts of modesty and shame, compounded by unwanted male gaze. I think that this is so ingrained that female chest covering is expected with or without actual breasts, maybe the idea that this is the area that breasts are normally expected to be is enough to make people uncomfortable with it being naked.

Funnily enough, I never had any qualms about breast feeding in public!

And yet all these young females getting mastectomies because they say they are men, are applauded for being photographed with their scars and are not censored online.

Was the first thing E. Paige did. Topless 'man' photoshoot.

My daughter asked the same question when about 6 or 7. "Why can't I wear trunks, why do I have to wear a swimming costume"? I really struggled to answer her. In the end I think I gave an overly long answer about customs and traditions sometimes applying to large groups of people (i.e. female adults and children) without really being thought through. She lost interest half way through.

It's interesting that you say you are not bothered by exposing any of your scars. Your body is readily identifiable as female, even without breasts. Perhaps some of the reasons others are uncomfortable at the idea of you exposing your breastless chest is that the scars will upset them, and that your female-coded body will freak them out by its scarred difference to the norm.

And we have been taught to hide our scars. So, despite your openness about your scars, you may have internalised some of that.

Please excuse me if I've used overly blunt or inappropriate language. I'm lucky that it's not a situation I have had to navigate. My only comparable experience is coming to terms with a medical condition and the permanent changes it caused on my face.

Well I wouldn't expect another woman to cover after a double mastectomy no.

I think we learn to categorise this sort of situation based on how we were taught, both explicitly told, or read for example by our parent/ guardians etc or rules in a specific location. Also by observation of wider society at that time.

So as an example I live in a country where topless sunbathing at the beach is not unheard of but you wouldn't see full nudity.
Girls up to 8/9 generally don't wear bikini tops so that's the norm here but I know it's different elsewhere.
Men wouldn't expose their chests anywhere that wasn't a swimming location, despite the heat, so it would be unusual for me to see either sex bare chested at the park.

To be honest I think that some people may feel uneasy, but not because of anything sexually related but because they attempt to shield themselves against the difficulties that life can bring by pretending they don't exist. In the same sort of way some noticeably find it difficult to be around people with disabilities or very old and frail people or hear about tragedy of one sort or another.
I think that they find the thought of it distressing and disturbing to be reminded of "real life " rather than a distorted " perfect life narrative" they desire.

So in answer to your question, although I'd clearly notice, I wouldn't pay much attention as long as it were in a location where it could be expected, based on where you live.

Well you can, you won’t be arrested. It’s only an offence to intentionally expose genitals. Although it’s less acceptable in society, women have equal rights to men when it comes to public nudity.

none of your language is blunt or inappropriate, thank you for taking the time to respond and give me your thoughts

Nor me!

DW never had qualms about breastfeeding either,though it’s over 20 years ago now she was once asked not to by a staff member,in the cafe of a large department store that still exists, when she asked where they expected her to go, she was told to use the toilets, she asked to speak to the store manager and invited him to eat his lunch in the toilet with her while she was breastfeeding, suffice to say she was allowed to stop in the cafe, sadly though I still see women today being made at the least to feel uncomfortable doing the same, attitudes are difficult to alter

I don't go topless as I'm embarrassed by my very tiny boobs. I hate seeing other women do it as I'm jealous 🤣. But I think we've been historically conditioned to think women who do go topless are doing it just so people look at them, to get attention. It's hard for me to say as I'd never do it.

Because of the Male Gaze.

The expectation that female breasts should be covered or exposed has varied over time. It also varies, now, according to where on the globe one finds oneself. As a very succesful colonial power, Britain exported Victorian prudery.

Being bare-breasted at the beach is not unusual for many women in mainland Europe, but is -I think - banned by ordinances is some US cities. British women seem uncomfortable with it, even when everyone else is doing it. So definitely cultural conditioning.

Back.to @catagoryA 's scars. As @JellySaurus suggested, some people would be uncomfortable seeing them because it would tell them you had had your breasts removed, and we also (culturally) regard medical information about us as very private. Privacy and shame go hand in hand.

But I like to think I would get over that and admire you for showing your scars, for not being ashamed, and for normalising what so many of us fear. Late in the evening, I might even pluck up courage to tell you so.

I'm the same @catagoryA!
Part of me is really tempted to go to the local swimming pool and just wear bikini bottoms to see what would happen.
I don't think I'd ever do it, a beach might be different though. I'm not ashamed of my scars and I also have a very cool tattoo over my chest.
However, I'm also quite fat and the combo of no boobs and a buddha belly is something no innocent beach goer needs to see!

Your scar is very sensitive to strong sunlight and can burn easily

If you go on holiday to a resort with an international clientele you will see that girls from many countries pre puberty only wear bottoms for swimming. It looks very weird to us but there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it. It is purely conditioning.

2/3 of female breasts is fat and has no role in milk production. Behavioural biologists say they are a sexual signal. If a woman is flat chested, wearing a bikini top gives an outward signal of youth and fertility so I guess that's why some women prefer bra tops even if they're not needed for support. It's not always about covering up in front of men but a woman's want to be attractive to herself, like wearing make up or dying her hair, I guess.

I'm about to have a mastectomy. I live abroad in a hot country the beach is my garden, sometimes im topless often im not, on the beach i don't expect that will change other than scar tissue being more sensitive to the sun so will need to cover up more than before
Why do you feel its an issue?

Is it maybe about vulnerability?

I wouldn't go topless, even on a topless beach, because I would feel vulnerable. I doubt a lifetime of feeling unsafe uncovered would switch off after a mastectomy, because emotions simply don't work like that. Having the skin of my chest visible would still trigger the fear.

I’m British and I wore bikini bottoms without a top on holiday as a small child.

I still remember the first summer when my mother bought me a two-piece (I was nine). The previous year I became friendly with an older girl during our holiday who did wear a top, and I asked my mother why she was covered and I wasn’t. My mother explained it was a growing up thing, so I was quite excited at first when she produced the bikini top, but I didn’t know what had changed as I was as flat that year as the previous year.

I found the tops awkward as they kept sliding up and off when I jumped into the pool, but my mother said I had to keep wearing a top. It was another three years until I had anything to put in it. Covering up was absolutely about trying to protect me from the male gaze rather than concealing actual breasts.

As others have said, it's because of the men. If there was a beach full of women, I would think more wouldn't mind going naked. However, clothes also cover up flabby bits, so there's that.

Interesting question. I totally get why you feel like you can't, and think it is about conditioning and social norms/expectations.
I wouldn't bat an eye if you did, though, any more than I do at any woman, with breasts or without, being topless on a beach.