Explain to me why I can't go topless please.

[catagoryA]

Hypothetical question, as I have no intention of going topless, but I don't understand what is stopping me.

I've had a double mastectomy some years ago. I am still using full swimming costumes on the beach and in swimming pools, rather than just swimming trunks. Also keep my tee shirt on in parks and private gardens when the men are stripping to the waist.

I feel like I have to. I don't know why. I also feel like I want to, so it isn't really an issue as such, but just something I don't understand. My family, when asked, all agree I should keep my chest covered up, even at home. Just as much as if I still had breasts.

There are no breasts to feel modest about. I am not particularly self conscious about scars, and have others I don't hide.

Is it decades of conditioning that I need to keep my top half covered? Or is it that women should cover up to be modest whether there is anything to cover or not?

Do you expect women to wear full chest covering swimming costumes still on the beach and in swimming pools after a double mastectomy? Why or why not?

I hope I have explained my question clearly!

Thinking about the poster who wrote about trans boys proudly showing off their scars and flat chest. This is what they see as typical male behaviour. Most men have no concerns about taking their tops off and showing off huge pot bellies. We are so conditioned as females.
Back to the OP I understand what you are saying.

I also think it’s an interesting question.

Culturally we generally have western societies that cover up mainly/partly? from the male gaze.

We presumably have all mostly seen old footage from years and years ago of more primitive tribes in hot countries where the women didn’t cover up. But now I think most of them have adopted the covering up of the western ways.

I think it mostly comes down to cognitive dissonance of the norm. Women, and women who look typically womanish, with the longer hair, body shape etc, etc in our life from our childhood onwards have breasts, which though mostly covered still show in shape under clothing or cleavage on show is the norm.

i guess this is why some transmen and trans women and drag artists can sometimes look ‘wrong’ and we often give them a second look to work out what we are seeing.

I would be similarly reluctance to go topless with the scars on show, and I think it’s very similar to how we instinctively react when we see a facial disfigurement or physical disability on show. If it deviates from the norm, we have an instinctive reaction that happens before we can even think about it.

We are learning as a society not to react negatively to anyone disfigured or disabled in any way, but in Victorian times people were often put in freak shows or travelling circuses. Disabled people still, even now, have to put up with staring and sometimes outright rude comments too.

I think the transmen images fall into a slightly different category. They are usually ‘dressing’ as men eg short hair, no makeup. If they have a more androgynous look I think that helps, perhaps because the androgynous look has been fashionable for many, many years and it is something he have got more used to seeing.

I presume in our evolutionary biology we developed an affinity to be drawn to those that looked like us, and away from those that didn’t as a means of biological survival. Up until the last hundred years we have nearly always ‘othered’ people unlike us (racism/disablism/poverty/homeless etc, even misogyny when the patriarchy was stronger).

Im not sure if I’ve explained myself well, I guess I’m trying to say that our civilisation is only (literally) skin deep.

Interesting response! Thank you

@Iamnotawinp Yes but up to a certain (undefined and ever changing point) a degree of difference from the norm and/or ambiguity is appealing/attractive/"cute". Which also makes sense from an evolutionary biology perspective. So there is a weird tension.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-68284037

Zendaya seems to be OK with not covering top half. And there's the male actor next to her with a jumper on.

Like it or not, female breasts are a secondary sex characteristic. Most adult women have them in various shapes and sizes, but they do have another function apart from feeding infants, and that is to do with sexual attraction.

Men don't have them and straight males are attracted to women who have female characteristics, such as breasts.
I know it has been more normal in the past 50 years or so to see uncovered breasts in public in some situations and in magazines, the cinema and on TV but for a lot of people they remain a private part of their bodies.
Some people are comfortable exposing their bodies or with seeing naked or partially naked bodies while others are not.
No-one is wrong here, however making other people uncomfortable by your behaviour is generally considered less than considerate.

I really don't think anybody should be topless in public except on a beach! I go walking and one of the routes I use is a pilgrim's path where lots of pilgrims pray while walking. It really annoys me when men whip their tops off even there. I've just been on a beach holiday and the woman next to me on the beach always goes topless but she's in the minority. I probably would if 1) I didn't burn so easily and 2) I wasn't with my teenagers who wouldn't like it.

Well going by thinking we should all yes even men be allowed to go anywhere fully naked

Not sure why this thread has popped up, but I love the idea of challenging public perception the way this woman has. I am not sure I would ever be brave enough though.

www.reuters.com/sports/athletics/breast-cancer-survivor-run-london-marathon-topless-help-erase-mastectomy-stigma-2024-04-18/

Great expression & question from a 7 yr old girl, be great if a boy asked reverse , but clever girl

Agree it’s society & ingrained, I had a single, my wife hates if I’m not using my prosthesis. I wish I’d had a double , don’t think wife would be so leased but I’d want to go Tooley’s on beach I think if I had a double 🤷‍♂️ all weird really, I dislike seeing even Adonis toppers on the high street

I think we're all conditioned to expect certain things from certain people, and we find it disturbing if those things don't happen. It's also disturbing to us if we contemplate not conforming in our own behaviour! It becomes an instinct that goes beyond logic.

So we have a social rule that says "Women must keep the top half of their body covered", and it's a jolt to see a woman who doesn't. Maybe the real rule is that "Women must cover their breasts" and therefor a woman who is without breasts shouldn't be affected, but that's such a rare situation that we've got no experience of seeing it. In fact we might find it doubly upsetting--a woman who isn't shy about her chest (bad!) and when we look closer, a woman who isn't shy about her lack of breasts (extremely bad!)

I get "Covering up was absolutely about trying to protect me from the male gaze rather than concealing actual breasts" but that's rather simplistic. It's also about doing what we know society expects, and making sure your children do the same. In fact a little girl who didn't need to wear a top until age 9 was being left free for longer than many girls are--a lot of parents would just accept that she shouldn't be topless at any age.

I think TiFs are sad, showing off their mastectomy scars. It makes me want to cry for them, so unnecessary to have removed healthy breasts.

But as for hiding the scars of a necessary mastectomy, I think it's how you feel. If you are uncomfortable then cover up.

Adult women not going around topless like men do is one of those illogical social conventions, isn't it? It shouldn't matter, but it does.

Have a look at old family photos - little girls didn't use to wear tops when swimming, until they got one-piece swimming cossies when older - maybe 8ish?

When 'bikini tops' for very young girls first appeared in the shops, I remember hearing comments from some mothers that they didn't like them because they sexualised little girls' bodies, covering up their chests as if they had breasts.

That suggests that they thought that breasts are sexual and it was wrong to imply that little girls' chests can be sexual.

Just do.it OP and if anyone challenges you, just tell them you're a transman. Because of course it would be
' transphobic ' to object...😂