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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Parkrun to remove course records

188 replies

Ingenieur · 07/02/2024 18:39

In response to criticism of its "gender categorisation policies", Parkrun are now removing a suite of details and records from the site.

https://twitter.com/Cantspekl/status/1755170910787490028

One more thing taken away...

https://twitter.com/Cantspekl/status/1755170910787490028

OP posts:
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18
PermanentTemporary · 08/02/2024 12:37

I certainly wouldn't support volunteers having to 'investigate' either on age or sex. Just make it clear it's based on sex MF, and a 'not willing to say' option sounds good too.

Zita60 · 08/02/2024 13:19

DuesToTheDirt · 07/02/2024 22:00

I wonder though how they can realistically police entries. They rely on people giving their age and sex, and if someone says they're a 40 year old woman who is going to check and tell them, "No, you're actually a man?" (Or, perhaps, "No, you're actually 29!") Remember too that race officials are volunteers.

I'm not saying that this outcome is desirable, just that I think they would struggle as they rely on people's good faith to enter the right category.

I think the fact that they say anyone can register as any sex they want fuels this though. It normalises the idea that you can do that.

If they said, "you have to register as your birth sex", fewer men would try to register as women. It could still be difficult to police, but if it was clear that the runner is a man, they would have a case to say, "you don't belong in this category".

MagpiePi · 08/02/2024 13:33

maltravers · 08/02/2024 12:35

Maria seems to be getting angry comments on Twitter of the “hope you’re happy now” variety. Honestly guys, if it’s not necessary for women to compete, why is it different for men?

I assumed this is what would happen, it was bound to be women's fault. Those pesky women should have just STFU so that a tiny minority of men could cheat, but no, they had to keep banging on about fairness. 🙄

ChatBFP · 08/02/2024 14:00

@NoMoreFalafelsForYou

Honestly, if you look at those who have won as women who are trans, they are very visibly male. It's really really obvious. I don't think that anyone needs to check everyone in the race - frankly, if it was clear that parkrun would check before posting a winning transwoman time as a course record, this would have enough of an effect on the race as a whole as it would clarify Parkrun's position.

Yesnosorryplease · 08/02/2024 14:05

I find it odd that parkrun hq have not been explicit about this.

I am a king time volunteer and have had no email, can't see an announcement anywhere.

Why not be up front and clear if you stand by your (ridiculous) decision?

For a large organisation they just make themselves look silly. I'm embarrassed for them.

WomaninBoots · 08/02/2024 14:11

Parkrun HQ seem to enjoy embarrassing themselves.

There's two big lies here. 1. Men can be women. 2. It's not a race.

mcduffy · 08/02/2024 14:29

I don't do parkrun any more.
My age/sex grading was pretty important to me, it is both/either a run and/or a race to me depending on my fitness.
DH and his pals are serious runners and some of them have course records, will be interested to see what's on his group chat today!

lieselotte · 08/02/2024 15:02

NoMoreFalafelsForYou · 08/02/2024 12:29

But if a female course record was beaten by a very male-looking person, or indeed someone they knew was trans, they could flag it with parkrun HQ for further investigation

Ugh, it's attitudes like that that would put me off parkrun, not running alongside people who are trans.
Where do people get off deciding who is or isn't "female enough" looking?! Then taking it upon themselves to flag 🙄 for investigation.
Love how it is friendly and welcoming to everyone as it is when you turn up and run, which might not be so much so if you think there might be some self styled trans investigators there.

Last week I was out for lunch and there were two men in dresses at a table close by. They may not have identified as trans.

But they were male bodied people.

It isn't a thing of "getting off" (what a horrible expression) on people not looking female enough. Despite what people claim, we as humans know the difference between male and female. And as I also said above, the regular volunteers know the regular runners, and they'd know if someone was a transwoman and then broke the ladies' record.

Nobody cares if a transman gets the male category record because they are female bodied. Although some of the guys might not like being "chicked" I suppose!

Cloudyz7 · 08/02/2024 15:05

I miss the good old days when hardly anyone had heard of Parkrun but if you knew, you knew. Why does everything have to try and get bigger and 'better'?

Of course it's a positive to be inclusive but if calling Parkrun a race, celebrating course records and winners puts you off joining in, then just go a find a walking group. Not everything can be for everyone. Absolutely no one cares if you want to walk round. No one. So why can't those who enjoy 'racing' be allowed?

In the attempt to be something off everyone, they've pissed off the core group of parkrunners. Not to mention how dismissive of women.

No mention of how many extra barriers there are for women who want run. The number of hours available and places to run are massively reduced due to safety. Running solo opens you up to unwanted comments and sometimes abuse from random men.

I was training for a half marathon last year and my (male) running buddy planned a very scenic training run for us. I had to tell him I couldn't make it that week because I wasn't up to dealing with my period away from civilisation and running water.

Parkrun might not be the olympics but for many women is one of few opportunities they can run safely and celebrate their achievements - how ever fast or slow they might be. But as always it's the men with the ladyfeelz who take priority.

WookeyHole · 08/02/2024 15:08

It's a great shame it's come to this, but it's definitely got profile. Thank you Mara and others.

lieselotte · 08/02/2024 15:14

No mention of how many extra barriers there are for women who want run. The number of hours available and places to run are massively reduced due to safety. Running solo opens you up to unwanted comments and sometimes abuse from random men

Totally agree with this.

lieselotte · 08/02/2024 15:15

I've also never quite understood why people need to use parkrun for a morning stroll, either. Fine to walk with a view to gradually jogging some or all of it. But not a gentle stroll with a stop for your kids to use the swings!

I'd never be tailwalker, it would drive me bananas.

lieselotte · 08/02/2024 15:16

Parkrun might not be the olympics but for many women is one of few opportunities they can run safely and celebrate their achievements - how ever fast or slow they might be. But as always it's the men with the ladyfeelz who take priority

It's also a way of women getting into sport. Those young girls could be the elite runners of the future and the older ladies might be able to compete for GB at Masters level. Grass roots sport is just as important as elite sport.

Yesnosorryplease · 08/02/2024 15:17

lieselotte · 08/02/2024 15:15

I've also never quite understood why people need to use parkrun for a morning stroll, either. Fine to walk with a view to gradually jogging some or all of it. But not a gentle stroll with a stop for your kids to use the swings!

I'd never be tailwalker, it would drive me bananas.

I've been at parkrun where people turn up in wellies to walk with their dog. Hardly needs marshalling, does it?!

Completely different if you're looking to gradually increase fitness and progress to faster walking, to walk/run, to run/walk etc and it's great to see those who progress like this over the weeks. But turning up to walk and chat seems a bit odd.

Yesnosorryplease · 08/02/2024 15:19

lieselotte · 08/02/2024 15:14

No mention of how many extra barriers there are for women who want run. The number of hours available and places to run are massively reduced due to safety. Running solo opens you up to unwanted comments and sometimes abuse from random men

Totally agree with this.

I saw that The Forestry Commission have organised a series of runs that are in association with something called SheRaces - really interesting because of the word woman and aiming to acknowledge and address what women need to be able to participate

Kendodd · 08/02/2024 15:29

DuesToTheDirt · 07/02/2024 22:00

I wonder though how they can realistically police entries. They rely on people giving their age and sex, and if someone says they're a 40 year old woman who is going to check and tell them, "No, you're actually a man?" (Or, perhaps, "No, you're actually 29!") Remember too that race officials are volunteers.

I'm not saying that this outcome is desirable, just that I think they would struggle as they rely on people's good faith to enter the right category.

Pretty much sums it up.

givemushypeasachance · 08/02/2024 16:50

As a regular volunteer and some-time run director at a busy event (regularly 500+ participants) we have no ability, time or inclination to get into policing the results from parkruns. We're a three-lap course and people finish after two laps every week, if we notice we mention it to them but we don't prevent them from crossing the line. If people cut corners, the only person they're cheating is themselves really, they'll have a PB that isn't genuine and is hard to beat doing it properly.

If a fast club runner picks up his 7yo daughter's barcode by mistake one morning and runs 19 minutes with it, unless he notices and emails in later, or someone else notices from the results and thinks huh I don't remember seeing a really fast young child that week, we're not going to know to go in and delete that result. Equally, if someone who on the surface looks male finishes third in 16 minutes and later it comes up that huh that person who finished third, Jay Smith in the results, has set a new female course record, I'm not likely to notice, remember who that was and think I'd better report that to parkrun HQ so they can email the participant and ask who knows what - "just checking, do you identify as female as you ticked that box when you registered?".

We're too busy getting out there hours before the event to check and set up the course, brief all the other volunteers, deal with anything from complaints about dogs or spitting, to calling ambulances for cardiac arrests or handing out plasters for trips and falls, problem solving half our equipment blowing away or everything being rained on, and then packing it all up at the end, processing the results and re-sorting 500 finish tokens back into order, then passing the kit on to the next week's volunteer. I just want to help put on the events that introduced me to running, so regulars and first timers can get outside and run jog or walk their 5k with everyone else.

museumum · 08/02/2024 17:16

I've got family members who are run directors and I run but am back of pack. It would not be fair to them and their place in their community to put them on the front line of policing people’s sex category. It’s just not possible. Any challenge to a persons self declared sex could easily result in the core volunteer team and their businesses being publicly blackballed in the community.

Parkrun might be a behemoth organisation but on the Saturday morning it’s just volunteers. If the IAAF, IOC, sport England, British athletics etc etc cannot solve the problem of protecting women’s sport then why should parkrun be able to? I do not blame them for choosing this cop out.

Tiddlywinkly · 08/02/2024 17:28

I think that by disadvantaging all males for once (as well as females) it will help to highlight the issues females face.

Yesnosorryplease · 08/02/2024 17:35

@givemushypeasachance @museumum

I don't think anyone is suggesting this is on the volunteers. It is for Parkrun HQ to make it clear that they are asking people to be honest and that it is sex at birth that they're expecting you to declare when registering and that would be used for age/sex grading. As other PPS have suggested, there should be a way to opt out if declaring that if it makes you uncomfortable but the solution is not to let you self identify into another category. It works perfectly well for ages. There may be people putting in the wrong dob for whatever reason maybe ....

I'm a volunteer at PR and am nearly at 150 credits. I'm increasingly uneasy at the clear point that is being pushed by HQ. They are making it a divisive issue.

Given that other sporting bodies have now stated that they will protect the female category and that athletes can pick female or male/open, I don't think it would be that hard for Parkrun to follow their lead. Instead they are very much picking a side and it's not the side of women.

Leafpicker2000 · 08/02/2024 17:37

teawamutu · 07/02/2024 21:27

I'm wondering if it might be quite useful. Things tend to happen quicker when men are inconvenienced.

This!