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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Saxon a spectrum

86 replies

IcakethereforeIam · 04/02/2024 11:12

More batshittery in academia

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/03/anglo-saxon-warriors-transgender-liverpool-university/

https://archive.ph/zoRIx

Tooth decay is female coded, who knew? While the rough tough girls transmen were out (and proud) fighting for Odin, the lads transwomen were plaiting their/them hair and eating sweeties 🙄

Some Anglo-Saxon warriors may have been transgender, says academic

Modern gender norms may not have applied in the Dark Ages, a study of seventh-century burials in Kent suggests

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/03/anglo-saxon-warriors-transgender-liverpool-university

OP posts:
dapsnotplimsolls · 04/02/2024 20:25

Jutes Schmutes, nobody cares about them!

NitroNine · 04/02/2024 20:33

Do so enjoy it when accidentally missing a couple of words (in this case “to Anglophones”) changes the sense of your post so/renders it not-quite nonsense (stilts optional).

newtlover · 04/02/2024 21:04

the comments under the article are hilarious

what about the simplest explanation probably being the best eh?

IcakethereforeIam · 04/02/2024 21:04

I'm feeling a bit needled.

If it wasn't for the Jutes we wouldn't have such a wide selection of reusable shopping bags and doormats.

Doormats and shopping bags are generally female coded in trans academia. There's probably a PhD in it.

OP posts:
SabrinaThwaite · 04/02/2024 23:49

I read somewhere that the Danes were the most disliked of the invaders of Britain.

Apparently they were a right bunch of Cnuts.

EBearhug · 05/02/2024 00:22

But one of them was only Harthacnut, not a whole one...

Abhannmor · 05/02/2024 08:44

So everyone raves about Angles and Saxons but it's Jutes Schmutes. Written out of history but why? Could they have been ...drum roll....a third sex!
Yet another PhD in the making.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 05/02/2024 08:54

MarieDeGournay · 04/02/2024 13:10

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YpGnzfd8KGs
What would they make of the shero of this song who was a gallant sailor and 'a maiden all the while'.
Unlike other versions of this song, she doesn't enlist to follow her lover, she seems to do it just for the hell of it ☺ I love the last verse, where she says she'll happily 'put off my hat and feathers and I'll run the rigging again'.
I'm a bit disappointed about the fine lady in London grassing her up to the captain, though...

(The singer is Tríona Ní Dhomnaill, sister of the equally great Maighréad and the late Micheál, and founder member of the influential 70s group Skara Brae.

Great song! Cheered me up.

IcakethereforeIam · 05/02/2024 09:10

There's a famous viking whose name has peaked the interest of many a historian. They've speculated it was because of an accident or injury leading to amputation or a congenital illness causing limb reduction.

I think one of they/them should explore if Ivar the Boneless had undergone gender affirming surgery. That's probably another PhD up for grabs.

OP posts:
Treaclewell · 05/02/2024 09:15

The Jutes had a very nice line in feminine grave goods; a set of crystal ball in a metal sling with a hemispherical spoon with a punctured bowl. These were usually very high status, but sometimes a bit less classy. The Victorian clergyman who wrote the directory of Jutish grave goods argued that the Jutes obviously imitated Roman spoons while missing the point, as they wouldn't have worked with holes in. As an antiquarian he had obviously never been to afternoon tea with his mater, since the design is almost exactly that of a tea strainer, without the projection for resting it on the cup. Which is relevant as it shows men not really understanding women's culture, or even trying to. High status women administered medicine to their dependants.

Treaclewell · 05/02/2024 09:20

Among the Viking burials at Repton was a male with a boar's tusk between his thighs, and there was speculation on TV as to whether this was Ivar being provided with a prosthesis for his afterlife.

IcakethereforeIam · 05/02/2024 09:22
When Youre Around GIF by Jutes

I...I put 'jutes' in the .gif drawer, just because and, ....why is there a naked tattooed man playing a guitar?

OP posts:
Abhannmor · 05/02/2024 09:44

So you are saying he was Ivar the Phwoarless?

Boiledbeetle · 05/02/2024 09:47

IcakethereforeIam · 05/02/2024 09:22

I...I put 'jutes' in the .gif drawer, just because and, ....why is there a naked tattooed man playing a guitar?

And so so soooooooooooo many versions of it!

MarieDeGournay · 05/02/2024 09:48

This is one of those threads that demonstrates what a clever, erudite lot MNers are, I love it! Polymaths, polyglots, poly..whatevs... I salute you.

Amongst the Angles, Saxons and Jutes, wasn't there someone who said 'Hey what about me? I'm Frisian!' and they all said ' Oh stop being nesh!'

SinnerBoy · 05/02/2024 09:54

Or, "No, you're a bloody Holstein!"

IcakethereforeIam · 05/02/2024 10:02

If he's nesh, perhaps a Jersey?

OP posts:
IcakethereforeIam · 05/02/2024 10:04

Boiledbeetle · 05/02/2024 09:47

And so so soooooooooooo many versions of it!

Just imagine what it would look like without the guitar!

On second thoughts, don't. Don't imagine that😳

OP posts:
lostwithoutpronouns · 05/02/2024 10:05

This is almost certainly empirically wrong. It's seven kinds of silly in other ways, but it also seems to have missed key recent data about the graves it discusses.

A big DNA paper published in Nature in 2022 showed that a number of burials from this period with an apparent mismatch between sex and grave goods were simply wrongly sexed. The skeletal remains looked to be one sex, but they turned out to be genetically the other. Skeletal sexing is very reliable, but not 100%. It's based on the shapes of different bones, and in a small percentage of cases it is misleading.

This is the DNA paper: https://rdcu.be/dxPqz

Gretzinger, J., Sayer, D., Justeau, P. et al. The Anglo-Saxon migration and the formation of the early English gene pool. Nature610, 112–119 (2022). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-022-05247-2

Page 114: "We note that several burials with weapons that were previously identified as female and discussed in the literature23,50 have turned out to be genetically male in our analysis (see the highlighted entries in Supplementary Table 1). Of note, however, a single individual still displays a sex–gender difference: a teenage boy buried with an equal-arm brooch, beads and a knife (grave 122 in West Heslerton)."

The DNA paper included over 50 individuals from the Buckland cemetery in Dover, Kent, which is the site the PhD student discusses. It's the obvious site, since it was well-known to have a few cases of apparent discrepancy between skeletal sex and gender presentation as expressed in grave goods. But was is the important word here, since the 2022 paper makes it clear that all but one of these apparent cases from all sites were misleading. The PhD student (or at least their supervisors) really ought to know about these recent results from the site they are studying.

The Anglo-Saxon migration and the formation of the early English gene pool | Nature

The history of the British Isles and Ireland is characterized by multiple periods of major cultural change, including the influential transformation after the end of Roman rule, which precipitated shifts in language, settlement patterns and material cu...

https://rdcu.be/dxPqz

JacksonLambsEatIvy · 05/02/2024 10:08

It’s the analytic frame that’s most obviously wrong.

Why on earth are they applying 21st century gender stereotypes and notions of ‘transgender’ to the Saxons?

That’s completely stupid.

newtlover · 05/02/2024 10:09

lostwithoutpronouns · 05/02/2024 10:05

This is almost certainly empirically wrong. It's seven kinds of silly in other ways, but it also seems to have missed key recent data about the graves it discusses.

A big DNA paper published in Nature in 2022 showed that a number of burials from this period with an apparent mismatch between sex and grave goods were simply wrongly sexed. The skeletal remains looked to be one sex, but they turned out to be genetically the other. Skeletal sexing is very reliable, but not 100%. It's based on the shapes of different bones, and in a small percentage of cases it is misleading.

This is the DNA paper: https://rdcu.be/dxPqz

Gretzinger, J., Sayer, D., Justeau, P. et al. The Anglo-Saxon migration and the formation of the early English gene pool. Nature610, 112–119 (2022). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-022-05247-2

Page 114: "We note that several burials with weapons that were previously identified as female and discussed in the literature23,50 have turned out to be genetically male in our analysis (see the highlighted entries in Supplementary Table 1). Of note, however, a single individual still displays a sex–gender difference: a teenage boy buried with an equal-arm brooch, beads and a knife (grave 122 in West Heslerton)."

The DNA paper included over 50 individuals from the Buckland cemetery in Dover, Kent, which is the site the PhD student discusses. It's the obvious site, since it was well-known to have a few cases of apparent discrepancy between skeletal sex and gender presentation as expressed in grave goods. But was is the important word here, since the 2022 paper makes it clear that all but one of these apparent cases from all sites were misleading. The PhD student (or at least their supervisors) really ought to know about these recent results from the site they are studying.

maybe the Telegraph should report this

JacksonLambsEatIvy · 05/02/2024 10:13

The supervisors for this shite should give their heads a wobble. ‘a trend for re-examining historical figures using modern gender categories’ is just really, really poor historical practice.

dreadful stuff. But… academic standards vary so wildly and peer review is no guarantee when the reviewers are also producing shitty work.

SabrinaThwaite · 05/02/2024 13:24

SinnerBoy · 05/02/2024 09:54

Or, "No, you're a bloody Holstein!"

You’re milking it now …

IcakethereforeIam · 06/02/2024 15:38

Journalist in Spiked thinks it's utter, sexist nonsense too

https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/02/06/there-were-no-trans-anglo-saxons/

Although tranglo-saxon....<wishes I'd gone with a different pun for the thread title>

There were no trans Anglo-Saxons

Gender-identity fanatics are relentlessly rewriting history.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/02/06/there-were-no-trans-anglo-saxons

OP posts:
PonyPatter44 · 06/02/2024 22:50

Treaclewell · 05/02/2024 09:20

Among the Viking burials at Repton was a male with a boar's tusk between his thighs, and there was speculation on TV as to whether this was Ivar being provided with a prosthesis for his afterlife.

Ivar the Boner-less, more like.

I thang yew.