Why is Mumsnet so GC?

[ireallycantthinkofaname]

Maybe an odd question but I've never come across another space, online or otherwise, where being GC is the norm. IRL I only ever discuss GC views openly with one family member, whose stance on it is similar to my own, though, so I'm not saying it's unwelcome.... Just curious how/why it's come about. Any thoughts or theories?

We live in a patriarchal world and trans rights activism is the patriarchy on steroids. Men use physical and structural advantage to suppress feminist thought and always have.

They can't physically intimate here (it is DELICIOUS how much that must piss some of them off). This space is unique. Men are allowed and yet for once they can't dominate.

They still do try and leverage their privilege to stop us talking though. We're constantly monitored and chaperoned and reported. But I guess MN have just about realised that feminists bring them more revenue than mens rights activists.

Yes, but 'gc' views are what has been protected in law.

Personally I'd say all feminism is 'critical of gender ', that's the whole point as far as I can see!

@EvelynBeatrice
Lots of young girls 10+ wouldn't want transwomen anywhere near them in a open communal school changing room either.

And actually lots of men particularly older men would be horrified at the idea of a transman being in the next hospital bed to them when they are feeling vulnerable and loosing their dignity.

I was a bit like you people can wear what they want but they shouldnt be impacting anyone else.

The whole trans thing undermines why we have single sex spaces in the first place.
Which loo you use or style of clothes you wear isn't what makes you male or female.

"Not forgetting that in terms of women's issues, in all areas of are lives, queer trans ideology is a more active threat than the ongoing ingrained mysogyny."

Queer trans ideology is misogyny...

Just to add, I'm realising a lot of my "be kind" wider acquaintances hold very Terfy views without realising it. Lot of people really don't have time to know about all this until it trips them up personally.

I think Mumsnet is definitely in step with the silent majority. If you look at opinion polls the majority do not agree with trans women in women’s sports. Look at the comments Ripcurl received recently. Also trans women in women’s prisons was part of the downfall of Nicola Sturgeon.

We were chatting about mixed sec toilets this week and for the other women in my office it was a ‘hell no’.

I’d also agree with PP that trans rights are not a big issue for most people. Opinion polls also show this. I think people are much more worried about the cost of living, the dire state of the NHS and all the cut backs the local councils are having to make. One local council up here is stopping all before and after school clubs which will affect young families but disproportionately mothers!

This

I agree but there are clearly a lot of 'feminists' who are not at all critical of gender. Those feminists claim that prostitution, objectification of women in popular culture and even men winning at women's sports as feminist acts.

I see your point on the language issue. My frustration is the increasing number of reactionary right wingers calling themselves gender critical when they are the opposite.

There's a reason trans activists pushed so hard for "no debate" and so viciously attack anyone who questions their dogma, threatening people's livelihoods and making them a parish in social groups.

It doesn't stand scrutiny.

All - and I mean literally all - of the gender ideologues claims are easily debunked if you look at the evidence.

"Trans kids are at risk of suicide if they don't transition"
"Puberty blockers are reversible"
"Puberty blockers are harmless"
"Some kids are born in the wrong body"
"Social contagion doesn't happen"
"Children have an innate sense of gender identity and know their 'true' gender from an early age"
"Affirmation is the best approach"
"Transition is healthcare"
"Clinicians never rush decisions to transition children"
"Only transphobic parents question their children's desire to transition"

Etc etc.

They're all demonstrably false, and many are the most pernicious emotional blackmail.

Anywhere that allows genuine, open debate, will result in people seeing the emperor is actually stark bollock naked.

Sadly, the places where you can hold an open debate on this topic are far and few between these days, although things are now starting to improve, despite the gender ideologues best attempts to reframe rational enquiry of any kind as transphobic.

The truth will out on this one, it's just a matter of how long it takes

It is a site where, unusually, women predominate, the majority with children.

Quite different to Reddit or TwiX.

So motivated by concern for our children, particularly girls, with empathy for vulnerable women in, say, prisons or refuges.

The better question might be why are women’s voices not being heard outside MN.

Because they shut everywhere else down

This is the key point. Every survey of the public, taken anonymously, shows that the majority of people want trans people to have the same rights as everyone else, but also that the public are also overwhelmingly "GC" when it comes to sports, prisons etc.

Because here, much to the TRA's horror, you can't block someone, or mute them or only mentioned by them. Posters have to stand by their comments and back up any statements with evidence. It means that unlike other platforms, where dissenting views can be blocked, any lurkers here who might be seeking information are able to see all the evidence, discussed and evaluated, and are able to come to their own conclusions, as opposed to any questions or mild querying being met with 'you can't question that, you bigot!!'.

Because it's one of the only places this can be discussed, online or in real life. As pp's have said, I might not have agreed with every decision made by MNHQ but they've held out under pressure from advertisers and activists which is to their eternal credit.

Because I discovered this place when I was struggling to breast-feed in the middle of the night, crying from the pain of mastitis, desperate for advice. Women here have all dealt with the realities of their female body through periods, puberty, infertility, pregnancy etc.

Yeah there's nothing quite like endlessly feeding a new baby at night to make one receptive to the idea that possibly, women and men are somewhat different to each other and that equality can only work when that fact is recognised, not ignored.

Edited to add I am aware plenty of women who don't have children come to this realisation too, and most women to their credit realise it before I did in mid 30s.

Remember the baffled (male) journalists discussing why we're TERF Island? And it prompted the response, "The answer is Mumsnet, I believe".

https://twitter.com/DouthatNYT/status/1506639811771305985

Good Twitter (as was) thread with contributions from Suzanne Moore and Hadley Freeman in response to 3 men who are perplexed by the level of "TERF representation in the UK elite".

I disagree with the original premise of this thread- that most spaces aren't GC. I think the majority of people in the UK don't consider themselves gender critical but their views align with key aspects of GC thinking.

Most people aren't interested in trans issues. Not because they are transphobic or trans allies, but because they know trans people are people and don't understand the fuss being made about gender expression. In the UK today, even conservative people tend not to get excited about gender non conformity when it comes to gender expression. Most people are pretty liberal when it comes to who wears what and what names people choose. Most people are fine with this.

The majority also do a mental translation exercise when people discuss trans woman/men. You can see their brains whirring and trying to remember if the word transwomen means a woman wanting to be a man or a man wanting to be a woman. Those who have 'less fucks to give' talk this through aloud.

The majority (who tend to think they don't care about trans issues), tend to have a view about preserving single sex provision where it's needed.

These views are prevalent because they are formed from life experiences (not ideology, post modernism or feminism). People know that there are 2sexes, they know that what people wear, how they style their hair, or how they think about themselves, doesn't change their sex. Most people don't think this is worthy of any headspace.

This is why TRAs won't give up their approach of trying to bring about their wishes by stealth and when that fails by bullying and intimidation.
They won't win people over through critical thinking/reasoning.

Ultimately they know they will fail (which fuels the anger). The stealth changes come to light and people push back and they are undone. The bullying and intimidation only controls those who are trying to appease. It won't work on 'the man on the Clapham omnibus' such as the angry dad who finds out there is a male in his daughter's changing room.

My frustration is the increasing number of reactionary right wingers calling themselves gender critical when they are the opposite.

People are self-IDing as all sorts and it doesn't make it true. I agree that it does make it easier to smear entire cohorts who are accepting their thoughts and perspectives from others.

Do you actually know anyone who thinks gender identity is more significant than their sex? Give a few examples like sport or rape crisis centres. In my experience most people agree with the women of mumsnet, it just isn't spoken about.

Mumsnetters have nailed it again.

There are high numbers of GC posters on Mumsnet because there are lots of GC people. The fact that there aren't lots on other sites is because these other sites don't allow GC posts.

You'll probably find as many explanations as there are people.

To my mind 'radical feminism' is just good old fashioned women's rights whereby the focus is always on women - regardless of class, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation; although I'd also say it did become associated to an extent with lesbian separatism - the idea that 'patriarchal oppression' was only avoidable by living separately to men and rejecting relationships with men.

Intersectionalist feminism arises out of post modernistic theory and the american experience, especially as it related to race. It codifies axis of oppression according to your belonging to specific 'identity' categories or groupings It works from the assumption that previously, feminism was about the white experience only - but I've never bought that idea.

In my experience feminism was always enbracing of women's diverse backgrounds and experiences and was always focused on what unites us all as women.

I'd also say that there is a difference between 'equality' feminism - which has an emphasis on being equal to men in all areas of life - and what i used to think of as 'Goddess feminsim', which focuses more on the strength of the female experience; on the power of female sexuality; the experiences of being menstrual; becoming pregnant and giving birth - and on all of the unique female only experiences that flow from these things. Very earthy, practical and rooted in the body. Woman as adult human female.

Lots of people pretend they do believe that, becaue it has become attached to the idea of 'progressive' politics - which is American university campus in origin. It forms part of 'Intersectionalist' politics and the politics of identity.

So anyone who believes themself to be 'progressive' has to believe this particular article of faith. You will find the same people on pro Palestine marches every week - even though they don't really understand either the politics, or the history, of the Middle East. .

"Do you actually know anyone who thinks gender identity is more significant than their sex? Give a few examples like sport or rape crisis centres. In my experience most people agree with the women of mumsnet, it just isn't spoken about."

I think the key thing here is the difference between 'organisations/institutions' and 'the people they serve'. Organisations have/produce policies and activists target policy makers to influence policies. If the people served by the organisations write the policies, they would look very different.

The TRAs who have influenced policy makers like to think/ pretend that the policies reflect 'what the majority want' but they know they couldn't have achieved the policy from the bottom up as they don't have majority support. They have had to use smoke and mirrors to get buy in at the top. Now those at the top are realising their mistakes through losing tribunals and court cases!

The acceptance that there are two sexes and sex matters is standard, normal and widespread. This is just one of the few sites that actually allowed the majority a voice.

Can't say it better than this.

The real question is .... why isn't everywhere? Wherever women are taking up space they should be knocking up against this nonsense ideological smokescreen for taking our rights.