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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why is Mumsnet so GC?

834 replies

ireallycantthinkofaname · 03/02/2024 00:18

Maybe an odd question but I've never come across another space, online or otherwise, where being GC is the norm. IRL I only ever discuss GC views openly with one family member, whose stance on it is similar to my own, though, so I'm not saying it's unwelcome.... Just curious how/why it's come about. Any thoughts or theories?

OP posts:
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70
Helleofabore · 19/02/2024 17:36

Mohur · 19/02/2024 17:33

I remember 1979. Women earnt considerably less than men, whilst working harder due to the unequal domestic burden they carried. They were subject to domestic violence and sexual violence at epic levels with no effective state response, lacked access to affordable childcare, safe abortion, suitable healthcare, and were blighted by poverty in later life due to pension inequalities. To add insult to injury they were marginalised, humilated and abused if they failed to adopt sterotyped presentation and behaviours as a good and attractive girl/wife/mother.

This resulted in widespread psychological distress, which was treated as individual pathology and not a response to social injustice.

yep.

But special menz....

ErrolTheDragon · 19/02/2024 17:44

Mohur · 19/02/2024 17:33

I remember 1979. Women earnt considerably less than men, whilst working harder due to the unequal domestic burden they carried. They were subject to domestic violence and sexual violence at epic levels with no effective state response, lacked access to affordable childcare, safe abortion, suitable healthcare, and were blighted by poverty in later life due to pension inequalities. To add insult to injury they were marginalised, humilated and abused if they failed to adopt sterotyped presentation and behaviours as a good and attractive girl/wife/mother.

This resulted in widespread psychological distress, which was treated as individual pathology and not a response to social injustice.

Yes...
One thing that wasn't happening afaik in 1979 was discussing

whether or not you really, really provably definitely fulfil all the criteria of womanhood

Confused
Helleofabore · 19/02/2024 17:51

ErrolTheDragon · 19/02/2024 17:44

Yes...
One thing that wasn't happening afaik in 1979 was discussing

whether or not you really, really provably definitely fulfil all the criteria of womanhood

Confused

I remember well that everyone knew exactly which people to oppress. I remember even in 1985 being asked if I was 'planning on having children' for full time job interviews. And gosh..... I was still being asked that in 2005!

RedToothBrush · 19/02/2024 18:03

What's the difference between a MRA telling you women have too many rights and it's not fair on men as sexism doesn't exist anymore

And

A TRA telling you that feminism hasn't been needed since 1979 and that women don't need sex based rights because being a woman is something in your head.

I have to say the 1979 comment is one of those that's going to live long in MNs collective memories isn't it?!

RedToothBrush · 19/02/2024 18:05

Helleofabore · 19/02/2024 17:51

I remember well that everyone knew exactly which people to oppress. I remember even in 1985 being asked if I was 'planning on having children' for full time job interviews. And gosh..... I was still being asked that in 2005!

Gosh.

My boss really was backwards.

My experience was as late as 2013.

Helleofabore · 19/02/2024 18:09

RedToothBrush · 19/02/2024 18:05

Gosh.

My boss really was backwards.

My experience was as late as 2013.

Yeah, I was working freelance by then and so my parental status didn't matter. I dealt with clients individually and was working from home mostly and they all knew about my family status. It was why I worked flexible hours.

I certainly don't expect the question stopped being asked even in 2024. Obviously they are not going to ask me though. I am very much clearly identifiable as past pregnancy potential.

Something that a male will not have to worry about.

Mohur · 19/02/2024 18:10

Mohur · 19/02/2024 17:33

I remember 1979. Women earnt considerably less than men, whilst working harder due to the unequal domestic burden they carried. They were subject to domestic violence and sexual violence at epic levels with no effective state response, lacked access to affordable childcare, safe abortion, suitable healthcare, and were blighted by poverty in later life due to pension inequalities. To add insult to injury they were marginalised, humilated and abused if they failed to adopt sterotyped presentation and behaviours as a good and attractive girl/wife/mother.

This resulted in widespread psychological distress, which was treated as individual pathology and not a response to social injustice.

And of course in 2024 this has changed beyond all recognition...Not.

Helleofabore · 19/02/2024 18:13

RedToothBrush · 19/02/2024 18:03

What's the difference between a MRA telling you women have too many rights and it's not fair on men as sexism doesn't exist anymore

And

A TRA telling you that feminism hasn't been needed since 1979 and that women don't need sex based rights because being a woman is something in your head.

I have to say the 1979 comment is one of those that's going to live long in MNs collective memories isn't it?!

Just like the 'constellation of data points that I identify as being 'woman'', I feel.

And just like the other male posters contributions such as nominating that an established trend of more than 100 women and girls harmed in the UK would need to be reported before women could get safeguarding loopholes addressed.

And that women's value was based on their breast size.

And that female puberty was about growing breasts and a pert bum.

I mean.... the list goes on and on.... commonality? All male posters.

Crankywiddershins · 19/02/2024 19:26

RedToothBrush · 19/02/2024 18:05

Gosh.

My boss really was backwards.

My experience was as late as 2013.

I've NEVER been asked if I was going to have children, probably the stink from the raw fish heads 🤢

ArabellaScott · 19/02/2024 19:30

Mohur · 19/02/2024 17:33

I remember 1979. Women earnt considerably less than men, whilst working harder due to the unequal domestic burden they carried. They were subject to domestic violence and sexual violence at epic levels with no effective state response, lacked access to affordable childcare, safe abortion, suitable healthcare, and were blighted by poverty in later life due to pension inequalities. To add insult to injury they were marginalised, humilated and abused if they failed to adopt sterotyped presentation and behaviours as a good and attractive girl/wife/mother.

This resulted in widespread psychological distress, which was treated as individual pathology and not a response to social injustice.

Well, the men have seen your oppression and find it thrilling. They've claimed it as their own now - in fact, they have it far worse.

Emotionalsupportviper · 19/02/2024 19:33

Boiledbeetle · 19/02/2024 17:05

Only a woman can fulfil all the criteria of womanhood.

You need two things

1 Be born female
2 survive to adulthood.

That's it.

The second of these isn't always as easy as it should be.

Waitwhat23 · 19/02/2024 19:33

Emotionalsupportviper · 19/02/2024 13:48

Say it, sistah!

Shout it from the rooftops!

Agreed - some brilliant posts today from RedToothBrush.

Emotionalsupportviper · 19/02/2024 19:35

Crankywiddershins · 19/02/2024 19:26

I've NEVER been asked if I was going to have children, probably the stink from the raw fish heads 🤢

Rubbish!

It's the gassy bacon rinds.

Hepwo · 19/02/2024 19:40

ButterflyHatched · 19/02/2024 16:45

It's incredibly difficult to talk about these real and important issues facing women when a conservative rearguard keeps resetting the discussion back to whether or not you really, really provably definitely fulfil all the criteria of womanhood like it's 1979.

Absolutely, that's exactly what trans rights activists are doing to us. I'm glad you recognize that problem.

ErrolTheDragon · 19/02/2024 19:41

The second of these isn't always as easy as it should be.

Nor the first, in some cultures.

Sex is determined before birth, gender is what assigns different worth based on it.

Crankywiddershins · 19/02/2024 19:43

Emotionalsupportviper · 19/02/2024 19:35

Rubbish!

It's the gassy bacon rinds.

Of course it is! But thanks for making me snort laugh, the cat just gave me a look and left the room!

JanesLittleGirl · 19/02/2024 20:49

I love bacon rinds. Our bacon is rind on. We cut the rind off and fry it separately. It curls up tight and is a lovely, crunchy, salty delight.

Emotionalsupportviper · 19/02/2024 20:49

Crankywiddershins · 19/02/2024 19:43

Of course it is! But thanks for making me snort laugh, the cat just gave me a look and left the room!

Sometimes the mood just has to be lifted or we would despair! 😀

Waitingfordoggo · 19/02/2024 21:55

RedToothBrush · 19/02/2024 09:16

Being ladylike?

What does that mean?

I find this one a bit of a paradox.

It's on the one hand supposed to be about being polite, respectful, having a significant amount of empathy for others, listening more than speaking, caring and being deferential to the wants and needs of others

Then you get a man come along, say they have all the 'lady essence' whilst demanding their rights are being trampled on and they demand more respect, shout about how they aren't listened to enough and aren't getting want they want and show a total lack of empathy. And the gender critical women here aren't allowed to demand respect and the maintenance of their rights because they don't like it and it's mean and transphobic.

It's gender stereotypes that don't serve the interests of women and somehow these are aren't applicable to the males who come along claiming they've been oppressed and want to impose gender stereotypes on us even more.

It's bonkers. Bollocks to that.

Absolutely agree. I used the word ‘ladylike’ with my tongue firmly in cheek. It’s a set of stereotypes isn’t it? There are all sorts of notions around it and they’ll vary depending on who you ask. But it might be things like…

-Drinking white wine spritzers instead of pints of beer

-Giggling and tossing your hair

-Enjoying shopping as a leisure activity

-Enjoying ‘pampering’

-Refraining from burping, swearing or whistling

All of it nonsense of course.

My FIL doesn’t like hearing me whistle and always tells me it’s unladylike, to which I obviously laugh. He’s known me for 25 years and is still labouring under the misapprehension that ‘ladylike’ means anything to me at all and that it is something I might care about 😂

lostwithoutpronouns · 19/02/2024 21:58

Yes, having constantly to reiterate that males aren't women is definitely making it harder to deal with sexism today.

But then that's the point, isn't it?

JacksonLambsEatIvy · 20/02/2024 07:44

@Waitingfordoggo Tbh, I hate whistling and tell my kids off if they do it around me. Although my rationale there is ‘it’s annoying’.

I agree that the term ‘ladylike’ is awful.

Waitingfordoggo · 20/02/2024 07:50

Yes, that’s fair enough- I know lots of people find whistling annoying.

Emotionalsupportviper · 20/02/2024 08:39

Waitingfordoggo · 19/02/2024 21:55

Absolutely agree. I used the word ‘ladylike’ with my tongue firmly in cheek. It’s a set of stereotypes isn’t it? There are all sorts of notions around it and they’ll vary depending on who you ask. But it might be things like…

-Drinking white wine spritzers instead of pints of beer

-Giggling and tossing your hair

-Enjoying shopping as a leisure activity

-Enjoying ‘pampering’

-Refraining from burping, swearing or whistling

All of it nonsense of course.

My FIL doesn’t like hearing me whistle and always tells me it’s unladylike, to which I obviously laugh. He’s known me for 25 years and is still labouring under the misapprehension that ‘ladylike’ means anything to me at all and that it is something I might care about 😂

I used to whistle cheerily at work and was "pulled" by a manager who said it was unladylike (accountant's office, circa 1970) and to stop.

He said - in a very superior way. "A whistling woman and a crowing hen are use to neither God nor men"

Happily an older lady in the office piped up with "You're misquoting, Mr X - It should be "A woman who whistles and a hen that crows will make her way wherever she goes.""

I could have hugged her!

JacksonLambsEatIvy · 20/02/2024 08:53

I might start telling my sons not to whistle because it’s unladylike (rather than annoying). My teen would laugh.

ArabellaScott · 20/02/2024 09:38

I miss people whistling.