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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why is Mumsnet so GC?

834 replies

ireallycantthinkofaname · 03/02/2024 00:18

Maybe an odd question but I've never come across another space, online or otherwise, where being GC is the norm. IRL I only ever discuss GC views openly with one family member, whose stance on it is similar to my own, though, so I'm not saying it's unwelcome.... Just curious how/why it's come about. Any thoughts or theories?

OP posts:
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70
Helleofabore · 13/02/2024 02:27

IcakethereforeIam · 13/02/2024 01:43

I find these assertions are 'unburdened by evidence'.

The aroma of male is certainly overpowering, as it is unmistakable.

NotBadConsidering · 13/02/2024 02:29

I was the youngest member of an all-female Counterstrike clan and we saw it first-hand whenever we joined a server under our non-secret handles. It was absolutely horrendous.

Did you tell them you were male?

That game came out in 2000. How was that part of the 90s online culture? You would have been no older than 16 at the end of the 1990s. As I said, it’s a laughable idea that you were having in depth conversations about trans rights online as part of the 90s online culture.

Emotionalsupportviper · 13/02/2024 06:16

JacksonLambsEatIvy · 10/02/2024 12:18

20 years ago no one really even used the term ‘transphobia’.

Re-writing history to suit the TRA narrative is deeply irritating.

Bearing in mind that they are "Transing the dead" these days (new TV series anyone?) it doesn't surprise me that they will re-write/ annex anything at all to suit their narrative.

Edited because autocarrot stuck its grisly oar in!

Emotionalsupportviper · 13/02/2024 06:20

The aroma of Greer and Raymond was unfortunately already overpowering

It seems it still wasn't strong enough to cover the stench of male entitlement.

Musomama1 · 13/02/2024 07:20

Probably due to freedom of speech and anonymity on here.

Mumsnet is a great resource of knowledge on many topics - because the membership is so wide, it's just giving voice to what many think irl.

And full of women who have experienced the biological reality of being pregnant and birthing, it makes you 'gender critical' long before you know it - you realise that 'womanhood' is biological, not ideas.

Rosesanddaisies1 · 13/02/2024 07:23

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

theDudesmummy · 13/02/2024 07:33

Men invading women's spaces has plenty to do with me. Because I am, you know, a woman.

RufustheFactualReindeer · 13/02/2024 08:16

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Well thats not very kind of you…

nothingcomestonothing · 13/02/2024 08:20

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

It's really quite impressive to get so many tropes into one short paragraph. Bravo.

I personally feel more sorry for the kids of the GI 'nutters' who've been lied to that humans can change sex and had their health and fertility destroyed with unnecessary drugs. But you do you.

WhereAreWeNow · 13/02/2024 08:21

As others have said, because it's an anonymous space for women to speak freely, to ask questions we are afraid to ask in real life. It's a powerful thing giving women space to speak without fear of repercussions 😊

nothingcomestonothing · 13/02/2024 08:27

Don't claim that you are despised because you are trans, because you aren't. Honestly - you aren't important enough to most of us to care what you are - we don't know you and aren't bothered about you.

That might be the worst thing anyone has ever said to Butters. Theys whole identity is based on being so important that everyone hates and wants to thwart them.

Helleofabore · 13/02/2024 08:48

Musomama1 · 13/02/2024 07:20

Probably due to freedom of speech and anonymity on here.

Mumsnet is a great resource of knowledge on many topics - because the membership is so wide, it's just giving voice to what many think irl.

And full of women who have experienced the biological reality of being pregnant and birthing, it makes you 'gender critical' long before you know it - you realise that 'womanhood' is biological, not ideas.

And certainly never a constellation of datasets that a male person can use to call
themselves ‘a woman’. No wonder some male people absolutely hate Germaine Greer so much.

RoyalCorgi · 13/02/2024 09:01

I'm late to this debate so I'm probably going to repeat what has already been said.

About seven years ago, when this all really started to kick off, there were a lot of sites that would censor any gender-critical remarks and even ban the person making them. I repeatedly had stuff deleted from the Guardian's comments sections, for example, even though it was always politely and moderately worded. Twitter would also ban people for trivial "offences" eg Meghan Murphy was banned for "misgendering" Jessica Yaniv.

Secondly, even on platforms that took a more tolerant attitude, such as Facebook, lots of us were frightened to say anything in our own names in case of repercussions. Rachel Meade was disciplined by her employer and her regulator for relatively mild comments made on her private Facebook.

Reddit closed down all its gender-critical forums.

So that left Mumsnet, which had the twin advantages of allowing you to post anonymously and to speak relatively freely - not completely, of course, because you couldn't (and can't) "misgender".

Because it was the only forum where you could do that, people flocked here to discuss the issue. It was a place to share information, listen to the arguments, learn about things that the mainstream press weren't reporting. We could find out about public meetings and about the women who had lost their jobs and needed funding.

We gained confidence from knowing they were not the only ones. This board was the place where the fightback against gender ideology began in the UK, and it's the place where the fightback continues. I strongly believe that, if it wasn't for Mumsnet, we wouldn't have been able to defeat the gender recognition reforms and we wouldn't now be known as Terf Island.

Helleofabore · 13/02/2024 09:01

nothingcomestonothing · 13/02/2024 08:27

Don't claim that you are despised because you are trans, because you aren't. Honestly - you aren't important enough to most of us to care what you are - we don't know you and aren't bothered about you.

That might be the worst thing anyone has ever said to Butters. Theys whole identity is based on being so important that everyone hates and wants to thwart them.

Absolutely! They are an elder and give advice and support to vulnerable children and young adults based on their personal and unique condition that has a very low likelihood of being relevant to those who are being advised or guided. Plus, they have not really acknowledged the significant difference of the current cohort to previous cohorts of young transitioners- that the group is now the majority female.

So we have a male with a rare medical condition that led them to make their own decision, advising current young vulnerable people on something they have no actual experience in. And who advises them as a male advising the female people when that male person has never been female and therefore knows nothing about female children or adolescents. And who has never once acknowledged, if I remember correctly, the significantly higher risk for life shortening and life limiting effecting of medical transition for female people.

That entire position is one built on a foundation of misogyny in my view. I think people can draw their own conclusions as to whether the person is a misogynist or not, based on their interactions on this board.

theilltemperedclavecinist · 13/02/2024 10:36

ButterflyHatched · 13/02/2024 00:42

The Gender Recognition Bill was being debated in parliament while I was already living deep stealth at the other end of the country and awaiting surgery, having started a new life at university. I'd already spent years learning exactly how people will treat you if they find out you are trans, both online and offline, by that point.

The aroma of Greer and Raymond was unfortunately already overpowering by the time I discovered the relevant newsgroups. The comparatively recent 'Gender Critical' rebranding was a genius move as it allowed for an alliance with the kinds of people who would normally run screaming or tut away into their tabloid columnist hate-screeds at the idea of anything calling itself 'radical' or 'feminist'.

There is nothing new about the current crop of anti-trans rhetoric, other than that it got louder and better funded after the war against gay marriage was lost.

Thank you for telling me about your experiences. I agree that you can draw a straight line from Greer to current GC feminists, because both are 100% focussed on the needs and rights of women.

I don't agree that they have anything in common with tabloid reading anti-feminists and homophobes. Many are lesbians and I've never seen them argue against gay marriage.

I get the impression that you are less of a practical worry to them, as a homosexual, than heterosexual transitioners who have a sexual fetish. The fact still remains though, that the needs and rights of women must ultimately have their roots in biology, and not in an artificially assumed gender role.

There is nothing new about the current crop of anti-trans rhetoric, other than that it got louder and better funded after the war against gay marriage was lost.

Where do you think this increased funding is coming from, and where is it ending up?

ButterflyHatched · 13/02/2024 12:39

NotBadConsidering · 13/02/2024 02:29

I was the youngest member of an all-female Counterstrike clan and we saw it first-hand whenever we joined a server under our non-secret handles. It was absolutely horrendous.

Did you tell them you were male?

That game came out in 2000. How was that part of the 90s online culture? You would have been no older than 16 at the end of the 1990s. As I said, it’s a laughable idea that you were having in depth conversations about trans rights online as part of the 90s online culture.

Well since I wasn't male and had never had a male identity online, why on earth would I have done that? I didn't look male; didn't sound male on voice comms. Had no reason to claim to be male any more than anyone else has any reason to disclose details about their genitalia in general conversation. Besides, I was a child and it was a frightening place already; doubly so if you were Known To Be Female; triply so if you had the audacity to be transgender.

CS 1 came out in 2000 and we were already well established in the beta before that. Before CS I played TFC. Before that I played UT, before that Quake 2, before that Quake which brings us all the way back to 1996. First time online was in 1995. I specifically went in search of other people like me and it turned out that they were out there if you could work out where to look. You just had to be so, so, so careful.

ButterflyHatched · 13/02/2024 13:33

RoyalCorgi · 13/02/2024 09:01

I'm late to this debate so I'm probably going to repeat what has already been said.

About seven years ago, when this all really started to kick off, there were a lot of sites that would censor any gender-critical remarks and even ban the person making them. I repeatedly had stuff deleted from the Guardian's comments sections, for example, even though it was always politely and moderately worded. Twitter would also ban people for trivial "offences" eg Meghan Murphy was banned for "misgendering" Jessica Yaniv.

Secondly, even on platforms that took a more tolerant attitude, such as Facebook, lots of us were frightened to say anything in our own names in case of repercussions. Rachel Meade was disciplined by her employer and her regulator for relatively mild comments made on her private Facebook.

Reddit closed down all its gender-critical forums.

So that left Mumsnet, which had the twin advantages of allowing you to post anonymously and to speak relatively freely - not completely, of course, because you couldn't (and can't) "misgender".

Because it was the only forum where you could do that, people flocked here to discuss the issue. It was a place to share information, listen to the arguments, learn about things that the mainstream press weren't reporting. We could find out about public meetings and about the women who had lost their jobs and needed funding.

We gained confidence from knowing they were not the only ones. This board was the place where the fightback against gender ideology began in the UK, and it's the place where the fightback continues. I strongly believe that, if it wasn't for Mumsnet, we wouldn't have been able to defeat the gender recognition reforms and we wouldn't now be known as Terf Island.

This is fascinating! You must have been one of the 'GenderCritical' Redditors then. I remember first seeing that 'single patient low IQ' paper on there which became something of a defining article of faith within the steadily crystallising GC canon.

It's surreal to see people talking about trans-negative views as if they're something novel or fresh - prior to the gamergate-era Great Awakening of online culture following the gradual social shifts that had paved the way for gay marriage, they were nigh-ubiquitous and the idea of someone receiving any kind of negative consequences for saying horrible things about trans people would have been laughed out the door. Suddenly anyone who felt incensed at no longer being able to freely use transphobic slurs without consequence had a ready-made cause and rhetorical base to jump into in order to prosecute the war on Political Correctness - but while that elevated profile brought political weight, it of course made continuing under the Radfem name untenable.

Plenty of remnants of the World Before still remained online, however - some of them crystallised into outright mask-off islands of hate after giving up on moderation entirely, while some chose the challenging road of continuing to allow open and robust debate while trying to address the worst excesses of the raging culture war being fought within their confines.

Mumsnet took the brave decision to remain as open as possible - a stance I respect even though I cannot help but lament the effect that choice has had on the codification and propagation of the British anti-trans movement.

Waitwhat23 · 13/02/2024 14:37

Butterfly's posts have certainly been informative as to how male centred online spaces have evolved.

I did have to laugh at this -

'prior to the gamergate-era Great Awakening of online culture'

As I mentioned in a previous post, you have a somewhat myopic view of what you seem to view as some sort of fabulous new utopia of online culture.

I mean, not for women, but who cares (obviously).

ArabellaScott · 13/02/2024 14:50

The aroma of Greer and Raymond was unfortunately already overpowering

What an utterly fucking gross statement.

ArabellaScott · 13/02/2024 15:10

When the mask slips, and someone shows you what they really think of women, believe them.

theilltemperedclavecinist · 13/02/2024 15:45

Wait. Did Germaine Greer just get force-teamed with a bunch of Incels on 4chan? It's like being in the Upside-down Confused

Helleofabore · 13/02/2024 15:54

ArabellaScott · 13/02/2024 15:10

When the mask slips, and someone shows you what they really think of women, believe them.

It really cannot be any clearer, to be fair. After all this time. I find it fascinating to see the complete and staggering lack of awareness of male entitlement in every time. By now it feels like a caricature of male entitlement that we see within some posts.

ButterflyHatched · 13/02/2024 17:12

Waitwhat23 · 13/02/2024 14:37

Butterfly's posts have certainly been informative as to how male centred online spaces have evolved.

I did have to laugh at this -

'prior to the gamergate-era Great Awakening of online culture'

As I mentioned in a previous post, you have a somewhat myopic view of what you seem to view as some sort of fabulous new utopia of online culture.

I mean, not for women, but who cares (obviously).

The internet went from an initial collection of tiny chaotic islands populated by a high proportion of open-minded (often queer or otherwise marginalised in some way within regular society) people excited about its potential, to a brutal lawless frontier where the excesses of 90's lad culture were replicated with even fewer consequences for the perpetrators of harm. It was horrendous.

The advent of the era of social media saw this digital landscape steadily colonised until it had largely become a homogenous expanse that replicated offline culture. Bigotry unfortunately reigned supreme here, as it did offline. We started seeing tone-deaf nonsense like Zuckerburg's announcement that privacy is dead and amongst those who had found refuge in the freedom of earlier online communities, there was a general sense that we were inexorably moving toward a miserable new dark age.

A significant sea change around 2012 (which had actually been gathering momentum for some time beforehand, and culminated in Laverne Cox's appearance on the cover of Time in 2014) saw the rise of a (sometimes naive and awkward) new culture of tolerance and acceptance of difference alongside a desire to see previously unpunished harmful behaviours brought to light and challenged. This mainstream expression of a new intersectional, highly race-and-class conscious feminism was unfortunately met by a fierce reactionary turn which enabled the rise of the Alt-Right in the US and set us down the road that led to the promotion of recycled Greer/Raymond-style anti-trans rhetoric into mainstream media dominance in the UK.

After it became clear that the battle to prevent gay rights from becoming legally and culturally enshrined had been lost and a new strategic approach was required, the US-based anti-LGBT Family Research Council announced a new strategy at their annual Values Voter Summit in 2017:

"The first is to "divide and conquer. For all its recent success, the LGBT alliance is actually fragile and the trans activists need the gay rights movement to help legitimize them."

"Trans and gender identity are a tough sell, so focus on gender identity to divide and conquer."

"Gender identity on its own is just a bridge too far. If we separate the T from the alphabet soup we’ll have more success."

From this new standpoint, we saw a concerted, sustained international effort to drive a wedge into the LGBT community by amplifying and weaponising the voices of existing anti-trans groups and ideologies while masking them with 'progressive' sounding rhetoric. You can see the initial attempts at this approach in evidence on the Heritage Foundation's 2017 article "How to Think About Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity (SOGI) Policies and Religious Freedom"

This backswing gathered a great deal of momentum under the conservative governments in the UK and US and culminated in concerted attacks on hard-won LGBT legal protections and provisions including the imposition of several laws banning trans healthcare for children in US states and the destruction of the UK's already faltering childhood Gender Identity Development Service alongside the adoption of an anti-trans position as a major election issue.

The reactionary nature of the 'Gender Critical' movement alongside the behaviour and associations of its shadier supporters eventually proved too divisive, however, and it is currently in the process of collapsing under the weight of its own differences.

Only time will tell which of the various component groups that form the 'Gender Critical' coalition will survive the increased scrutiny that comes from such a rise in prominence.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 13/02/2024 17:15

Why is Mumsnet so GC?

Why isn't everybody?

Waitwhat23 · 13/02/2024 17:16

ButterflyHatched · 13/02/2024 17:12

The internet went from an initial collection of tiny chaotic islands populated by a high proportion of open-minded (often queer or otherwise marginalised in some way within regular society) people excited about its potential, to a brutal lawless frontier where the excesses of 90's lad culture were replicated with even fewer consequences for the perpetrators of harm. It was horrendous.

The advent of the era of social media saw this digital landscape steadily colonised until it had largely become a homogenous expanse that replicated offline culture. Bigotry unfortunately reigned supreme here, as it did offline. We started seeing tone-deaf nonsense like Zuckerburg's announcement that privacy is dead and amongst those who had found refuge in the freedom of earlier online communities, there was a general sense that we were inexorably moving toward a miserable new dark age.

A significant sea change around 2012 (which had actually been gathering momentum for some time beforehand, and culminated in Laverne Cox's appearance on the cover of Time in 2014) saw the rise of a (sometimes naive and awkward) new culture of tolerance and acceptance of difference alongside a desire to see previously unpunished harmful behaviours brought to light and challenged. This mainstream expression of a new intersectional, highly race-and-class conscious feminism was unfortunately met by a fierce reactionary turn which enabled the rise of the Alt-Right in the US and set us down the road that led to the promotion of recycled Greer/Raymond-style anti-trans rhetoric into mainstream media dominance in the UK.

After it became clear that the battle to prevent gay rights from becoming legally and culturally enshrined had been lost and a new strategic approach was required, the US-based anti-LGBT Family Research Council announced a new strategy at their annual Values Voter Summit in 2017:

"The first is to "divide and conquer. For all its recent success, the LGBT alliance is actually fragile and the trans activists need the gay rights movement to help legitimize them."

"Trans and gender identity are a tough sell, so focus on gender identity to divide and conquer."

"Gender identity on its own is just a bridge too far. If we separate the T from the alphabet soup we’ll have more success."

From this new standpoint, we saw a concerted, sustained international effort to drive a wedge into the LGBT community by amplifying and weaponising the voices of existing anti-trans groups and ideologies while masking them with 'progressive' sounding rhetoric. You can see the initial attempts at this approach in evidence on the Heritage Foundation's 2017 article "How to Think About Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity (SOGI) Policies and Religious Freedom"

This backswing gathered a great deal of momentum under the conservative governments in the UK and US and culminated in concerted attacks on hard-won LGBT legal protections and provisions including the imposition of several laws banning trans healthcare for children in US states and the destruction of the UK's already faltering childhood Gender Identity Development Service alongside the adoption of an anti-trans position as a major election issue.

The reactionary nature of the 'Gender Critical' movement alongside the behaviour and associations of its shadier supporters eventually proved too divisive, however, and it is currently in the process of collapsing under the weight of its own differences.

Only time will tell which of the various component groups that form the 'Gender Critical' coalition will survive the increased scrutiny that comes from such a rise in prominence.

Seriously, are you not embarrassed writing that utter bilge?