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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Emma Hardy suing David Lloyd Gyms over trans policy

255 replies

flyingbuttress43 · 31/01/2024 15:36

Believed to be the first time in the UK that a service organisation is being sued
(as opposed to cases being taken to employment tribunals ). The case is likely to come to court late this year or early next year. She is also active in her home area of York in establishing what exactly is local NHS/councils policies on the issue and warning them of the potential risks of their trans inclusive policies. NB: she says she was told by the head of biology at York University that sex was on a spectrum.......

Why I'm suing David Lloyd Gyms for Failing to Provide Single Sex Changing Rooms.

Emma Hardy talks to Peter Whittle about why she is suing David Lloyd Gyms over their policy of allowing people born male to use female changing rooms in whic...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU5pVvz9FTI

OP posts:
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11
SidewaysOtter · 31/01/2024 15:42

Bloody good for her.

Is gardening required?

DadJoke · 31/01/2024 15:52

It's not a legal requirement for gyms to exclude transgender people from changing rooms, though arguably they could (if it's legitimate and proportionate). You can't impose this on providers. I'd like to see the legal basis of this court action.

Apparently have trans-inclusive gym is "woke."

RoyalCorgi · 31/01/2024 15:58

For the umpteenth million time, it's not about excluding TRANS people, it's about excluding MEN. How difficult can it be?

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 31/01/2024 16:01

Trans people aren't being excluded from gyms. Males should excluded from female changing rooms, regardless of how they identify.

It's really not difficult to understand.

StephanieSuperpowers · 31/01/2024 16:03

Is is that difficult to understand if you've decided to ensure that you don't understand it. Being deliberately obtuse, in old money.

Poinsettiasarevile · 31/01/2024 16:03

Its also being crystal clear about the changing room spaces, are they single sex or not. Having the little woman in a shirt symbol could be argued to be misleading if males are allowed in.

theilltemperedclavecinist · 31/01/2024 16:04

She's not suing them for having trans-inclusive changing rooms. She's suing them for not also providing single-sex changing rooms, which is discriminatory in other ways.

TeenDivided · 31/01/2024 16:06

I'm a member of DLL.
I would not be happy with a TW in the female changing rooms. Totally inappropriate.
Especially as there are 'family change' rooms too just with large cubicles that a TW could use.

Froodwithatowel · 31/01/2024 16:06

GOOD.

NO ONE is excluding trans people from the gym.

Men are being excluded from using non consenting women in a state of undress. Hopefully. And they bloody well should be.

That is neither genocide, nor deprivation, and nothing that any decent man would inflict on another person. As any fule no.

anyolddinosaur · 31/01/2024 16:07

Help Emma sue David Lloyd will find an appropriate garden. It is proportionate and therefore legitimate to exclude men, however they identify, from changing rooms for women and girls.

Schools are legally obliged to provide separate facilities but take them to a gym and suddenly that is not necessary - that's bonkers.

DadJoke · 31/01/2024 16:17

theilltemperedclavecinist · 31/01/2024 16:04

She's not suing them for having trans-inclusive changing rooms. She's suing them for not also providing single-sex changing rooms, which is discriminatory in other ways.

Single-sex spaces in law can exclude transgender people of the sex with which they identify, but do not have to. I'm not sure why this is so complicated. It's up to the gym. She's made it clear she can't afford to use Lloyd, accepts that their position is legal, that there is another gym she can go to - in fact her only gripe was their policy wasn't clear.

So, the changing rooms are single sex and exclude trans women.

It's not discriminatory to not exclude trans women from women's changing rooms.

Apollo441 · 31/01/2024 16:20

At very least they should clearly be marked as mixed sex and stop gaslighting they are single sex. Let's see how that forced honesty plays with their customers.

mumda · 31/01/2024 16:30

About 20 minutes in she'll tell you what the head of a biology dept said about biological sex.

Please go and watch.

theilltemperedclavecinist · 31/01/2024 16:39

anyolddinosaur · 31/01/2024 16:07

Help Emma sue David Lloyd will find an appropriate garden. It is proportionate and therefore legitimate to exclude men, however they identify, from changing rooms for women and girls.

Schools are legally obliged to provide separate facilities but take them to a gym and suddenly that is not necessary - that's bonkers.

The proportionate and legitimate test does not apply to the existing setup, because no males are disadvantaged. The males have the choice of the male-only space and the mixed ('trans-inclusive women's') space. The females don't have a male-free space to choose, indirectly excluding religious females and eg DV survivors. The test applies to this indirect discrimination.

Having already provided TWs with a safe place to change, is it even a respectable aim to also provide them with the exclusive (vis-a-vis other males) right to enter every area containing females, without exception, let alone proportionate and legitimate? Why? What will they gain from it that is worth stopping some women from being able to use the gym?

StephanieSuperpowers · 31/01/2024 16:44

I don't know if you've encountered Jokers before, @theilltemperedclavecinist , but he's going to be like a dog with a bone about this. He will not countenance any suggestion that there's a place males who've thought that magic words shouldn't be.

theilltemperedclavecinist · 31/01/2024 16:47

I'm afraid to say I have and I know I shouldn't fall for it! But I worry that people will believe him.

ArabellaScott · 31/01/2024 16:53

Wow, well done for her! Shovel at the ready.

WickedSerious · 31/01/2024 17:00

DadJoke · 31/01/2024 15:52

It's not a legal requirement for gyms to exclude transgender people from changing rooms, though arguably they could (if it's legitimate and proportionate). You can't impose this on providers. I'd like to see the legal basis of this court action.

Apparently have trans-inclusive gym is "woke."

Edited

No one's excluding men in skirts from gyms,they just want them to get undressed with the other men.

Totallymessed · 31/01/2024 17:07

I don't know the legal arguments at all, but I'm a member of David Lloyd and had no idea about this policy. Given that the women's changing room is full of women of all ages, and small children who have been taken swimming by their parents, I don't think many people will be happy when they hear about it.

It's going to be very bad publicity for them. They advertise themselves as being family friendly, it's a really important part of their USP. Even if the policy is found to be lawful, just making everyone aware that their policy allows any man who feels like it to go into the women's changing room will not go down well.

And members should know. DL shouldn't be able to just quietly allow it and hope no-one notices.

InvisibleBuffy · 31/01/2024 17:12

I find these threads quite depressing. It's 2024 and we're still getting men plop onto these threads to tell us how women don't have the right to get undressed away from men if we want to go to the gym.
Every bloody time.
And as someone said upthread, it is disingenuous. It's not them somehow misunderstanding the issue. They do. They just can't comprehend a world where male people can't override a woman's 'no'. It's pure male entitlement.
Well, we're saying no.
Good on Hardy. Let's hope this sets a strong precedent.

Winnading · 31/01/2024 17:16

Totallymessed · 31/01/2024 17:07

I don't know the legal arguments at all, but I'm a member of David Lloyd and had no idea about this policy. Given that the women's changing room is full of women of all ages, and small children who have been taken swimming by their parents, I don't think many people will be happy when they hear about it.

It's going to be very bad publicity for them. They advertise themselves as being family friendly, it's a really important part of their USP. Even if the policy is found to be lawful, just making everyone aware that their policy allows any man who feels like it to go into the women's changing room will not go down well.

And members should know. DL shouldn't be able to just quietly allow it and hope no-one notices.

It's been their policy for ages now,,years. It was all over this board in 2018 along with m and s and Topshop and many others. I've been boycotting m and s and David lloyd ever since.

MurielThrockmorton · 31/01/2024 17:31

I'm a member of a new David, Lloyd, having transferred from another one, and the changing room is surprisingly small. We are all really squashed up, and it is open plan with one, maybe two cubicles. A male body amongst all that would have an absolutely massive impact. I guess they're just hoping that it doesn't happen and so therefore there's no problem. it doesn't make me feel particularly secure though, not knowing who is in the shower next to me.

Goldwork · 31/01/2024 17:31

Does anyone know what she is suing them for precisely - what the cause of action is?

DadJoke · 31/01/2024 17:39

The conflation between what the law is, what gender critical people want, and want they want the law to say is quite remarkable. It's all set out in the EqA.

You can have single-sex spaces. These SSS include people with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment, which is "the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex" by default.

Note the use of the word "sex."

You can exclude transgender people from single-sex spaces which match their acquired sex under paragraph 28. There must be an objective reason.

28(1)A person does not contravene section 29, so far as relating to gender reassignment discrimination, only because of anything done in relation to a matter within sub-paragraph (2) if the conduct in question is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

(2)The matters are—

(a)the provision of separate services for persons of each sex;

(b)the provision of separate services differently for persons of each sex;

(c)the provision of a service only to persons of one sex.

The current statutory code clarifies this:

If a service provider provides single or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim

When the AEA challnged this, they lost - they were found "wrong in law."

From AEA vs EHRC.

"The claimant submits that if a difference of treatment can be justified vis-a-vis birth men in general, then it is inconceivable that it cannot equally be justified vis-à-vis birth men who are transsexual women. On that approach, though, the Equality Act's gender reassignment provisions would in substance provide no protection at all, in the context of an SSS, to transexual persons without a GRC. ... So if vis-à-vis men in general it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate end, then the same must apply vis-à-vis birth males who are transexual women. Thus, the claimant's approach would place transsexual women without a GRC in the same position for these purposes as all other birth males. That is clearly incompatible with the tenor of the Act.

"In deciding whether a PCP is a proportionate way of achieving a legitimate end, it is inevitable that regard must be had to its impact on persons with the protected characteristic in question. It is clearly wrong to assume, as a matter of law, or as a matter of obvious practice, that the answer will necessarily be the same whether one assesses a PCP as applied to birth males in general or whether one assesses it as applied vis-à-vis birth males who are transsexual women."

However, it is in my view clear beyond argument that Parliament has chosen, in the 2010 Act, to place transsexual persons in a different position from the generality of persons of their birth sex. What effect that has in particular
circumstances will depend upon the application of the provisions in the Act, including the Schedule 3, para. 28 justification exception, to those circumstances. I do not accept the claimant's contention that the Code makes clear errors of law in the way in which it sets the position out. On the contrary, I consider the claimant's construction of the Act itself to be clearly wrong in law for the reasons I have summarised.