Emma Hardy suing David Lloyd Gyms over trans policy

[flyingbuttress43]

Believed to be the first time in the UK that a service organisation is being sued
(as opposed to cases being taken to employment tribunals ). The case is likely to come to court late this year or early next year. She is also active in her home area of York in establishing what exactly is local NHS/councils policies on the issue and warning them of the potential risks of their trans inclusive policies. NB: she says she was told by the head of biology at York University that sex was on a spectrum.......

YY @Goldwork

Apparently not providing single-sex services is "trans-inclusive".

I agree with you @Goldwork

@Waitwhat23 these are not, in fact, examples of legitimate and proportionate reasons for excluding transgender people, but examples of single-sex spaces. In some cases, they directly relate to natal sex, in others, not, as the case which FWS lost confirms. It might be reasonable to exclude transgender people in these examples, but that’s not what these are.

There is currently very little case law surrounding what is LAP.

Thank you, I have just donated. I hope she wins.

Why do you need case law? They give directly applicable examples in the guidance for the 2010 Equality Act. I know it doesn't say what you want it to say but you should read it. We have.

What are these legitimate and proportionate (LAP) reasons of which you speak? The actual expression is "a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim".

Bannatyne exclude transgender people from spaces reserved for people of the opposite biological sex as a proportionate means of achieving the legitimate aim of preserving the dignity and privacy of their clients. This has yet to be challenged in court.

Tried to redefine woman - didn't work
Tried to redefine female - didn't work
Now trying to redefine single sex 😆.

It doesn't matter what you call it -
Naked female bodies are the most basic place where adult or mature male bodies, no matter how mutilated, are rejected.

If being naked is not the proportionate reason what else is?

I think some men have spent so long keeping women out of business decisions that they can't tell the difference between dignity and power moves any more.

@JanesLittleGirl LAP is simply shorthand for the 28 exemption.

Bannatyne personally said his gyms were trans exclusive, but there is no stated policy and the gym itself won’t respond for comment, perhaps for legal reasons. It would make a good test case as to whether gyms have the option of being trans exclusive if they chose to be.

Of course they are not trans exclusive.

Trans people can still go. They can change in the rooms that match their sex class.

But you will never be satisfied unless males can be in areas where women are undressed, even when those women are non consenting. I find your view on this, as others have said, creepy.

Sorry Dads I've got bored of playing chess with a pigeon. LAP is shorthand for Paragraph 28? Hasn't even got the initials in the right order. Nobody has taken Duncan Bannatyne to court in the 4 years since he announced the bar. I wonder why? Keep posting rubbish and I promise to ignore it from now on.

Dear Dadjoke,

As I've lost the heid with this crap now....

It isn't a single sex space/provision/service if someone who is the opposite sex is also using it, even if they really, really want to. It is then, by definition, a mixed sex space/provision/service.

Even if they have a piece of paper, even if they have incorrect sex markers on their documents, even if they wished on a star with all their fingers crossed, even if they've had extreme cosmetic surgery and/or doses of wrong sex hormones, even if there is some sort of bizarre legal fiction, even if they asked Santa on their Christmas list and even if they are parodying a male gaze sexualised version of a 'woman'.

You can shake your fists at the clouds all you like but MALES are excluded (as they should be) from female single sex spaces.

https://democracythree.org/help-emma-sue-david-lloyd

I've just donated too, we need single sex spaces. This is an important case.

Single sex should not include any males, even ones with special certificates.

Dad Joke I think you are doing a very good job of increasing donations to Emma's claim. Keep posting. You are making it crystal clear that this is about putting the wishes of males above the safety and dignity of women.

My local climbing centre is mixed sex changing rooms. There’s no other provision. There are cubicles as well as a big central areas where the lockers are.

For me, the issue isn’t the cubicles. It’s the middle area where loads of men (no women) get changed in full view of everyone. They don’t give a shit about the impact it might have one women.

Do you have a link to Bannatyne saying his gyms are trans exclusive please? I’m 100% sure there would be a court case brought by an excluded trans person if he had said that. And quite rightly, nobody should be excluded from using a gym for identifying as trans.

I think Dadjoke often forgets that women who identify as men exist. Apart from when he wants to use them for a toilet gotcha.

Our local sports centre used to have separate male and female changing rooms. About 6 months ago they became mixed "changing villages". Everybody still seems to use them as per the old system as I've never encountered a man in the one I use.
Thankfully we live in an area where people don't wander around naked in them.

Pretty much every objection on this site to transgender people is directed at trans women, which is why they tend not to come up, because gender critical people think they are women. I fully support their right to use men's single sex spaces under the EqA. What in particular is your beef with trans men?

@Somanyquestionstoaskaboutthis
https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/duncan-bannatyne-says-letting-trans-21550284

@Waitwhat23 legally, single-sex spaces can include people with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment, even your personal definition of single-sex spaces differs from the legal one.

Does anyone have any idea what the legal basis for this suit is and what outcome she is looking for?

legally, single-sex spaces can include people with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment

Absolutely, as males, transwomen must be included in male single sex spaces or it is direct discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment. I don’t think any of the women on here have ever argued that transwomen should not use the men’s changing room.

Pretty much every objection on this site to transgender people is directed at trans women, which is why they tend not to come up, because gender critical people think they are women. I fully support their right to use men's single sex spaces under the EqA. What in particular is your beef with trans men?

My issue is your frequent misrepresentation of women's objections to males in female spaces as being about their "trans" identity rather than it being about their male sex. So it's simply not true to say that it's "trans exclusionary". It's male exclusionary from female spaces. That's why female trans people are mentioned less, by the women here. It's fairly typical of male trans allies to do this sleight of hand gaslighting though.

I know I promised but really. You have posted over half a dozen times on this thread and now you want to know what it's about.

Thanks for the link. Now can you post me one in which Bannatyne says his gyms are trans exclusive, which is what you said he has said, and I asked for.