Policing Men's Clothes

[MalagaNights]

There's an interesting debate going on twitter between many of the GC feminists I follow and Sarah Phillimore and Helen Pluckrose.

It seems to hit on some of the themes we've been involved in discussing on here previously. Particularly linked to the man in a dress at Genspect.

https://x.com/SVPhillimore/status/1748983536785190951?s=20

Helen Pluckrose states somewhere that there is a a streak of authoritarianism in GC feminism. With some wanting to control what men can wear.

Sarah and Helen seem to be saying you can't legislate for this which I actually don't think anyone is arguing for. They're arguing with a straw man I think.

But what I think they're missing is the societal shift that has socially accepted men in women's clothes has allowed many men permission to have their fetish publicly celebrated.

We could turn that around with a change in social attitude. E.g many companies have now allowed men to wear the women's uniform at work. They don't have to allow this. We could return to men and women's uniforms including practical options for both.

We could openly discuss and express our discomfort about men who do this is usually sexual, instead of pretending it's just fashion. Everyone used to know this about cross dressing and that's why it was done privately.

Then we hit on the tricky issue how do we discriminate between men who are AGP and men who like exploring fashion?

Helen Pluckrose is arguing it's not usually sexual and if you are uncomfortable deal with your own feelings.

We could ensure that where men still insist on performing feminity we at least don't have to listen to why they're so brave and their 'story' to self discovery, as has been happening in work places.

I actually think the 'it's just clothes' ' let's abolish gender' stance of some feminists has led to this opportunity for men to queer the boundaries and bring their sexual fetish into every day life. I think we're discovering that some of the boundaries we had around the sexes, performed a role which we've thrown away.

I agree with Sarah that we can't legislate for this. But we never had legislation on clothing we just had socially acceptable rules which change over time with common consent.

Anyway, it's very heated over on twitter and I think we've actually reached a point of having to address this issue. How do we deal with men who get a sexual thrill from wearing women's clothes. Once we've all agreed they're men. Then what?

I judge people on their clothing all the time. And make assumptions about what signals they are sending.

Sounds like a you problem, not a feminist problem.
I also don’t agree that “human societies have always had..” is ever a good argument against change and progress.

Right so they can wear skirts, just not women’s skirts.

I haven't RTFT yet (don't have time right now) but has anyone linked to Aja's excellent tweet on the point of men in skirts / dresses - top line men are creepy, bottom line men are not and look great.

https://twitter.com/Aja02537920/status/1727745772970471686

As usual, she's spot on imo - I'd agree with this.

Basically my take is that most women, if they get in touch with their inner biology, have some evolutionary hardwired instincts to identify men who are a threat to them and their children. So men who are enjoying a fetish at our or our children's expense- we generally get a creep vibe.

Some women override that by thinking too much and convincing themselves they're being unkind to mighty bepenised ones by listening to such instincts.

Others think that even if you're wrong once in a while, it's worth it for stronger safeguarding because honestly, so what if a man's feelings are slightly hurt by a woman's opinion? They're free to disagree and mostly do.

Men are free to wear what they like and women are free to find it creepy if it's overly sexualised 'women's' clothes.

I never argued that Zara skirts for men don't exist. I pointed out that there are no "skirts" aimed at men currently for sale at Zara and asked for a link.

You have shown me a couple of pictures of kilts which are traditional male clothing. It is no great surprise that some men's outfitters sell kilts and it hardly backs up your claim that this thread contains demonstrably false information does it?

I also wouldn't argue that men's outfitters never sell skirts for men. But I would agree with OP that there is not a current fashion movement of skirt wearing men. You rarely see a man in a skirt in public and when you do it's usually a kilt or otherwise it's a man who is clearly attempting to signal his womanly gender identity.

Also, if you take it to the extreme, then if you're really ok with ANY clothing, you should also be ok with no clothing - i.e. naturists and I'm pretty sure most people don't want naked teachers teaching their children in this country.

In other societies maybe that's fine (although I am sceptical) but not here.

It's not healthy for society to have no boundaries. It can't really function without any.

Both of those are human nature problems.

Best of luck with creating the new utopia that overcomes human nature.

You may find you'll need to get a teeny bit more authoritian than the unwritten shared values of decency I'm suggesting.

Anyone who says they can bring about 'progress' it's just never been done properly before makes me want to back far far away.

Maybe?

Most women wear women's trousers.
There isn't just a trousers department.

The boundary queering is the wanting to wear women's clothes. Whatever remain distinctive about women's clothes will be the thing some men want.

Men's skirts would be styled and designed differently from women's skirts. They don't want that.

Yes, heard the same when I was fighting for women’s rights. It’s all pointless naivety and wishing for a utopia.

One I heard was no human society has ever classed a husband exercising his marital rights as rape. To say “I do” is lifetime consent to sex. It’s always been that way, and only a vanishingly rare number of wives are complaining about sex pest husbands- they should just lie back and think of painting the ceiling.

If it really mattered, we could police clothes. Many countries do- look at Iran. The clothes do not make the man or woman- that is your opinion that clothes do and you like judging people for what they wear.

Great example thank you.
One is a row of men in men's clothes. Which are not commonly mainstream right now.
The bottom line is men in women's clothes.

Both are men in skirts.

My point in addition to this is that the top line of men's fashion isn't really mainstream now.

And it's hard to object to the bottom line if you just say: men in skirts is fine.

GC feminists want the top line to be a thing, & TRAs want them to say men in skirts is great so they can wear the bottom line.

It's not straightforward.

Oh God, please do not make skirts some sort of battlefield in the British gender wars. We need less of that.

Righto you crack on with bringing about your genderless world never before seen.

In the meantime...

Men wearing skirts again won’t create a genderless world. You are writing like the world has never seen men in skirts when most of the world and history has seen men in skirts (not just kilts or in boring dark colours).

All you are doing is clinging on to one fairly recent bit in one culture because you are resistant to change.

“In the meantime...”

You’ll be suggesting women who don’t dress how you say should be shamed and arrested as well?

Yes arrested and locked forever in the Tower of London next to the men in skirts.

You got me.

Please read all my responses to people earlier in the thread who made the same irrelevant points.

Wow I have always defended a woman’s right to wear what she chooses from a burka to a bikini and not be harassed for her clothing.

I could provide a range of photos of women wearing very little in public including those who chose to go without knickers and flash the paps.

same. And those women who do flash the paps are roundly and soundly criticised (and abused, sadly) for it. So why not roundly and soundly criticise (but not abuse) anyone who dresses inappropriately? What is inappropriate? We all know that, even though it is - in UK at least - not actually written anywhere.

That goes from not wearing sweaty sports vests in supermarkets, to no trainers in nightclubs, to shirt and tie for some restaurants. Any formal occasion will have a dress code (see instructions on invitations to Buck House garden parties, or investitures). We all, i hope, know it's not actually ok to wear a sheer dress with black sequined nipple guards and thong and fuck-me sandles to your granny's church funeral. etc etc.

Why don't we see more men in skirts? Because of the stupid reactions i suspect. I regularly see a bloke in a plain back kilt (a proper one with proper deep pleats and a lovely swing to it) in my conservative little town. Usually with boots and thick walking socks, and a furry hoodie in winter, t-shirt in summer. He is fine. He isn't getting a visible thrill. It looks great on him. If he was wearing a black wet-look mini skirt, no pants and stockings? he would be arrested. because there are laws about public nudity.

If there were actual laws that told me what to wear (burka? hijab? bonnet and red cloak?) i wouldn't comply. At all.

People who want to get a reaction will continue to do so. As soon as they cross the bounds of public decency? Police.

Sure - judge them if you like. You argued, though, for something more. To 'openly discuss and express our discomfort' at men dressing in woman's clothing, Something you think is justified because you think they dress that way for 'sexual' reasons.

Firstly - how can you know that? And secondly, who decides what's sexual and what's someone simply dressing the way that 'makes them feel good'? Haven't we all done the exact same thing? How would we feel if someone ascribed 'sexual' (and let's face it - you mean 'perverted') motivations for us doing so?

I get to decide how I feel about what other people are wearing.

This isn't an: "I identity as this not being sexual so you have to accept that and override your instinctive response" situation.
Fuck that.

It it feels off to me it feels off to me and I don't care if you think I'm 'judgey'.

You're free to feel however you like about it. You don't get to shame people because of the way you feel.

The irony of your argument is that, by shaming cross-dressing into something that should only be conducted privately, you would be closing down one of the ways in which transwomen can live how they wish without stretching to the silly claim that they ARE women.

I would far prefer men with GD have the option to assume the identity of a cross-dressing man if this makes them more comfortable, and for this identity to be respected and normalised. Then, perhaps, fewer of them would insist that they are women.

Interesting debate!

I agree with PP that policing clothes is a dangerous way to go, but using normal societal expectations applied to both sexes is a more balanced approach.

At the end of the day, perverts gonna perve and I'm not sure that stopping men from wearing everyday womenswear is going to solve that as there's no way to know who is getting their kicks or who is making a genuine fashion statement. Similarly, we don't know what is going on under the trousers of men out in public... but we wouldn't suggest men weren't allowed to leave the house "just in case" 😂 Overtly sexual clothing or actual fetish gear e.g. leather pup play outfits are absolutely cause for concern as the sexual intention is clear.

Each to their own.

I preferred it when men kept their kinks private and abided by general standards of decency in public and we all still knew what a man and a women was.

I think the idea we have to accept public cross dressing to argue that men in a skirt isn't a women is illogical.

as for a "genderless utopia" i think what most feminists really want is a "gender stereotype free utopia" that lets us wear the trousers, be the pilots, wear the skirts, be the stay at home parent and all the things in between. And for men to be able to do the same.

What people wear? meh. Harry Styles and David Bowie both wore spectacular dresses and looked phwoar in them. Other men, not so much.
Iranian morality police beating women who show their hair to death? not good. People not being uptight about what a bloke wears in the office? fine by me.

Going back to the days when girls must wear skirts/dresses to school and as a result were banned from doing handstands? Fuck. Right. Off.

I agree with most of that except 'not being upright with what blokes wear to the office.'

I think some 'uptightness' about what people wear in some situations is necessary.

Your argument is where feminism meets queer theory.

There needs to be a licensing system. Men are not allowed to buy or wear women's clothing without a licence (this will allow actors etc to wear women's clothing), and there should be a body set up to decide on what clothing is male and what is female.

This seems like a sensible and simple solution.

Good plan.

Or we could have a shared understanding of boundaries that are informally socially regulated.