Liv Hewson, non binary actor with mastectomy in Teen Vogue

[DerekFaker]

Mother of God make this stop!!!

https://www.teenvogue.com/story/liv-hewson-profile-nonbinary

A friend of mine was diagnosed with cancer 2 years ago and it looked like her treatment plan would involve a mastectomy. She was absolutely horrified by this, and said she felt sick at the thought of being 'mutilated' (her word). Thankfully it looks like the mastectomy won't be necessary, but she found even the thought of it so chilling, even though it could have saved her life

It's beyond perverse for any surgeon to even consider cutting healthy breast tissue off a young woman. Very sad and very unsurprising to read her anorexia comments

So I have perused the career, further to my own enquiry.

It seems that women used to be famous for having , and displaying, large breasts.

Now it seems that non binary people are famous for not having breast any more.

plus ça change…..

There is an interesting point here, about acting awards: '…acting is the only category that's separated by sex… Isn't it a little bizarre that there's one job that's about men and women and the rest of them aren't?'

There is disparity here, she's right. I suppose a response might be that, if there was just one category for acting, men might take it over. Then again, if there were sex-separated categories for, say, directing, more women directors might have been recognised with awards.

It's beyond perverse for any surgeon to even consider cutting healthy breast tissue off a young woman.

This

'TV: I want to ask you about your top surgery. Our culture is petrified of assigned female at birth people getting top surgery; conservatives and TERFs say things like, “Girls are mutilating their bodies” or “What if they regret it?”
LH: It's really misogynistic: “These girls couldn't possibly make this decision correctly and will need to be stopped from doing terrible things to their bodies.”
When people talk about gender-affirming surgery using words like “mutilation,” that's not very nice. Is that how you think about people who've had surgery for other things? It's a disgust reaction, and I do not take disgust into account as a legitimate point of discourse. I don't have to entertain it and I'm not going to. It's a waste of everybody's time, it's knee-jerk, it's not grounded in reality, and it's not useful.
And it's a squeamishness about medical intervention. I think the idea of making legislative or cultural decisions in and around [that] is laughable. Your squeamishness is not what the world turns on; it doesn't matter.
One time somebody left a comment under a picture of me where you could see the edges of my top surgery scars, saying something along the lines of, “This is like women cutting their fingers off.” At first that really disturbed me. I was like, “Man, that is just a horrible thing to say.” And then it suddenly struck me as a little bit funny. I was just like, "And are the women cutting their fingers off in the room with —
JJ Geiger
TV: — us right now?"
LH: Exactly. I am not going to entertain anybody's disgust over my body. It's my body, it’s healthy and strong and beautiful, and there’s nothing wrong with it. Point blank.
In terms of “What if you feel regret?”: Is the idea that nobody ever feel regret about anything? Aside from the fact that we have complete statistical information about regret rates of gender- affirming surgery and this is an absolute nonstarter, what? Are you also going to legislate against people getting tattoos? It's just control: “I want you to make decisions based on my level of comfort with your existence.” That is completely irrational.
TV: Have there been moments of gender euphoria for you since your top surgery?
LH: I cannot tell you the complete, fundamental shift that I have felt in the year since having surgery. I knew that I wanted top surgery for a decade; it's the longest I've ever thought about doing anything. The place where I went, I had that clinic's website open on my laptop for five years. It was this impossible mountain: I want that, but I'm never gonna get it. No one's gonna let me, blah, blah, blah. To have that be in the past now...
I stand differently, I walk differently, I carry myself differently. It feels different in my body than it ever has. I have just never been happier. I've never been more centered. I've never felt more stable and present and alive. It's the best thing I've ever done for myself. It’s taught me a lot.
The recovery process taught me about rest, accepting help, and caring for my body as something connected to me rather than separate from me, that I’m in opposition to: This is mine and I want to take care of it. I feel good in it and good about it.'

I have just never been happier. I've never been more centered. I've never felt more stable and present and alive. It's the best thing I've ever done for myself.

Cutting her breasts off is 'the best thing I've ever done for myself'.

I've never felt more stable and present and alive

.

How is it misogynistic, if I would equally not want boys and young men to remove their genitalia? I don't think any young person can make that sort of decision. And it's not just "terfs" that think that, when you consider that other surgeries like sterilisation is incredibly difficult to access for young women. Or even nonsurgical things like getting a tattoo.

'The recovery process taught me about rest, accepting help, and caring for my body as something connected to me rather than separate from me, that I’m in opposition to: This is mine and I want to take care of it. I feel good in it and good about it.''

This is really sad and really disturbing.

Aside from the fact that we have complete statistical information about regret rates of gender- affirming surgery

Oh, really? Where's that, then?

When people talk about gender-affirming surgery using words like “mutilation,” that's not very nice. Is that how you think about people who've had surgery for other things?

No, Liv, pet, we say "mutilation" when healthy body parts are amputated to accomodate a mental state. Your body is you. You need to make your peace with it, not chop bits off that you don't like.

Vogue magazine brought us heroin chic in the 1990s, now bringing dysphoria chic to a teen near you.

Exactly. I am not going to entertain anybody's disgust over my body. It's my body, it’s healthy and strong and beautiful, and there’s nothing wrong with it.

It can't have been healthy etc. for all that long, Hewson's only a year out of surgery and has been learning to accept care etc.

I cannot tell you the complete, fundamental shift that I have felt in the year since having surgery.

And of course Hewson will never experience another fundamental shift. Fingers crossed, eh? Dunno if anyone's studied mastectomy but one of the few studies for some other trans surgeries says it's average seven years to deep regret. Hope Hewson can still sue.

It was this impossible mountain: I want that, but I'm never gonna get it. No one's gonna let me,

That's a dangerous story to tell teenagers because "impossible" and "they wont let me" are so much more attractive than "silly" and "pointless". Flames to a moth.

Aside from the fact that we have complete statistical information about regret rates of gender-affirming surgery and this is an absolute nonstarter, what?

Oopsie! Oh no, now I feel sorry for Hewson. Though to be fair Hewson shouldn't spread misninformation. And Vogue certainly shouldn't.

It's just control: “I want you to make decisions based on my level of comfort with your existence.”

Well, personally I'd rather young people made decisions based on evidence about their likely level of comfort with their own existences in future, but no-one controls Hewson. In our society Hewson is old enough to make their own mistakes however dire. Still seems to think like a stroppy teenager though.

When the Brit Awards tried to merge the best artist categories,no women were nominated

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67507057

How can a woman who is so certain she's not like other women that she can't countenance being recognised as one use the term "misogyny" with a straight face?

NB I'm using the term "woman" to talk about sex category. It's not misgendering because I'm not naming anyone's gender ID.

Oh yes, I'd forgotten about that. I do think men would likely take over acting awards too, as I said.

Yeah they should definitely have sex segregated awards across the board. Film and TV can be extremely difficult for women in all departments. The hours are often completely unworkable with having children. That's before you factor in the sexual harassment.

But hey all this is the kind of thing boring old women women identify with and love amiright?

There are more parts written for men so the disadvantage is from the off

Agree.
One might say better parts, too.

Exactly. It is far, far more engrained than the mere categories.

Does anyone know of any research about what male people who identify as nonbinary do, in terms of body modification? Do they flee from the male body the way many nonbinary female people seem to flee from the female body? Or is some lipstick and eye shadow enough to turn a man into a nonbinary person?

And are nonbinary female people discriminated at work, compared to nonbinary male people? There's not enough data on this, probably, but my guess is that we would observe the exact same pattern there as when we compare male and female workers overall.

My guess is that it's the loathing of the female body, at least partly caused by how that body is commercialised, sold, dissected, evaluated, and turned into a product supposed to always be available for the male gaze, supposed to always stay fresh and trim etc which is driving some of this. (In this culture, in other cultures the female body belongs not to the public male gaze but to private male consumption, but it's still seen as largely a sexual and reproductive product).

Does declaring a nonbinary identity save a female person from all the sexism and misogyny? I doubt that. But what insults me about the very concept is that it stuffs everyone else into the sexist rigid binary categories and essentially argues that all women must like being treated with sexism and misogyny etc. if they don't take the trouble to declare themselves as somehow beyond the actual material sex categories.

When people talk about gender-affirming surgery using words like “mutilation,” that's not very nice. Is that how you think about people who've had surgery for other things?

Yes, when it comes to amputating healthy body parts.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/12/a-new-way-to-be-mad/304671/

The phenomenon is not as rare as one might think: healthy people deliberately setting out to rid themselves of one or more of their limbs, with or without a surgeon's help.

Why is wanting to cut off breasts and genitalia described as 'affirming' and perfectly normal when wanting to cut off limbs is unacceptable and a sign of a mental health issue?

OMG please let this stop. This is disgusting. That young woman is mentally unwell. Bloody hell!

The photo is very disturbing

The phenomenon in that Atlantic article was exactly what sprang to mind when I got to:

Are you also going to legislate against people getting tattoos?

Because while people disagree on where to put the line, virtually everyone agrees there should be a line.

• Haircut? Fine, do as you please.
• Tattoo? Not permitted for children.
• Cosmetic sugery unrelated to gender? Again, not for children - and a lot of people feel a bit squicky about some of it, but generally not banned for adults.
• Lopping off a healthy but unwanted leg? Banned almost everywhere. Although several countries experimented with allowing qualfied surgeons to do it, before bringing in a ban.
• DIY castration with optional cannibalism? Absolutely not.

So legislation on gender-related cosmetic surgery is perfectly reasonable. In the scale above, it clearly sits higher than tattoos - which are subject to legislation in much of the world. The reasonable question is not whether there should be laws, but whether it fits with general cosmetic surgery or is closer to the legs category.