Transmen in ANY sports

[MidCenturyLangClegs]

I've a niece who is identifying as a transman. She's not sporty my question doesn't apply to her herself.

But I was wondering about the fact that nobody really seems to be talking about what her options would be for sports if she was.

At the moment a trans-identifying male can compete with and against females in non-elite sports. For elite sports, many sporting bodies are telling him that it doesn't matter however low his testosterone levels are after using x-sex hormones, if he's gone through male puberty than he has to compete in the MALE/OPEN game.

All good, I think most of the sane world know he's a man and want to protect women's sports.

But what happens with transmen?
Testosterone, no matter what it is used for, is classed as a doping drug. So trans-identifying females who wish to participate at a semi-pro or pro level will not be able to take "gender affirming medicines" if they want a sports career. There is an absolute, hardline NO in their participation in sports within both the MALE, FEMALE and OPEN categories because of this.

So if sane rules apply, Lia Thomas will be refused to race against women but can compete in the Male and Open categories whilst taking oestrogen. That's inclusive to both males and females and respects Thomas' wish to have 'gender affirming medicine'.

But Iszac Henig, trans-identifying female aka transman who raced in the same championships as Thomas, couldn't take gender affirming medicine until after the event. She had her breasts removed but knew that if she took testosterone she would be thrown out of her sport for ever.

What's the answer here. No newspaper ever talks about this?

I don’t think anyone should be playing in an opposite sex category, ever. If sex categories exist, they are for a particular sex. If a member of the opposite sex takes a place, whether at elite or grass roots level, then they are depriving someone of the right sex a place. That applies both ways round and it applies to things like chess just as much as power-based sports. If the categories are sexed then it’s unfair on someone of that sex to have to miss out.

This in itself is enough for me - though it is also true that males in women’s sports are often dangerous as well as at an unfair advantage and that matters too, you should not have your chance at a sport taken away because of someone being in the wrong category. Just as adults shouldn’t be in kids’ categories and sighted people shouldn’t be in blind categories and so on.

Males are more likely to have success by being I the wrong category than females are, which is another sex-based unfairness being perpetrated on women. But on an individual level if I was a male who had to miss out on a place in my category because of a female I’d be within my rights to object.

@MrsTwatInAHat - several sports are now adopting the two categories "open" and "female", so there is no "opposite sex category" for a female athlete, but a choice of two categories for which they are eligible.

This has incidentally been the case historically in chess - there are no men's competitions, just female and open.

Bizarrely, swimming seems to have got the wrong end of the stick and recently trialled having three categories - male, female, and open. No-one entered the open category.

I've heard about the open category, but i thought it was male, female and open (like the swimming mentioned). With chess it makes more sense - if there's a female category it should be for females, like book prizes etc.

What happens with team sports though like football and cricket? Is the men's team open to women or does it not apply there?

This forum is so ridiculous. Someone provided evidence that what you're saying - trans men can never be competitive! - is not true, and you have to grub around in the dirt to find excuses why that example doesn't count somehow. You just don't like being proved wrong - and Patricio Manuel does prove you wrong. He's been undefeated since transitioning female to male against natal male fighters. Look at him. Would you really want him fighting in the woman's category? Because that's the logical conclusion of your arguments.

This is exactly right and it was noted at the time. It’s obvious Manuel has been given patsys to fight against to look good. Manuel was a good enough female fighter to trial for the Olympics and no doubt sparred against men in training.

And 3 out of 3. Three bouts over 6 years. The first in 2018, then two last year. Each only 4 rounds each. Each going to the judges to decide.

They were paid sparring sessions.

Look at him. Would you really want him fighting in the woman's category? Because that's the logical conclusion of your arguments.

No, because clearly there is testosterone in use. A female cannot look like that without it.

I only know about the BC, UCI and CTT policies but many other governing bodies have similar policies.

Firstly, there is no male or men’s category anymore, it has been renamed open. The open category replaces the male category, it is not a third category.

Secondly it’s incorrect to state that the rules regarding transgender athletes only apply at elite level. For the bodies above (and I believe this is true for WADA and other bodies too) the regulations apply at ALL levels of competition.

Regarding your point, a transman who has a normal female endocrine profile can compete in the female category. A transman who has an endocrine profile outside of the female limits can compete in the open category. If they are taking any exogenous androgens they will of course need a TUE and if they are above the male limits they will be banned even with a TUE.

Well quite. If oestrogen was a PED every athlete on the pill would have to apply for a TUE.

"Bizarrely, swimming seems to have got the wrong end of the stick and recently trialled having three categories - male, female, and open. No-one entered the open category."

It's hilarious, isn't.

No one's ever 'transitioned from female to male' or vice versa.

I wonder if the male opponents get a bit spooked fighting against a woman?

Bizarrely, swimming seems to have got the wrong end of the stick and recently trialled having three categories - male, female, and open. No-one entered the open category.

But that's fine isn't it? The open category is there for anyone who doesn't want to compete in the right category for their sex. If they won't use the open category that shows that competing in the wrong category for their sex is more important to them than competing.

For men, they'd still have an unfair advantage in the open category so it must be for other reasons they want to be in with the women. Using women for their own validation, or just because they want to intimidate them or see them in the changing rooms/expose themselves etc.

For women, they'd have an unfair disadvantage in an open category so are better of in women's, if men aren't in it. The only women who open would appeal to are those on testosterone who wouldn't be allowed in the women's. But there are few trans sports people like this because they would usually have a disadvantage in the men's and can't be in women's so they arent around much.

It depends what you mean by "competitive".

If you put this 'trans man' up against a top man in the same weight class [super featherweight] then: (a) he'd be utterly destroyed; and (b) it would quite possibly not be allowed to happen because by the look of the trans boxer's physique he's been 'roided up to a level that's well beyond what's normal in boxing, I would guess that his T levels are off the scale for anyone of any sex or probably species.

Pro boxers who are starting out get spoon fed victims whose job it is to lose. Occasionally the victim is a specialist like this bloke [career record 12 wins, 279 losses, https://boxrec.com/en/box-pro/216597] but much more commonly it's someone pulled more or less straight off the street - this trans boxer's three opponents (see https://boxrec.com/en/box-pro/846760) have career records of 0 wins 4 losses; 1 win 4 losses; 1 win 8 losses] fall into this category.

Any decent man fighting a woman will hold back, worried he might hurt her. I've seen this in martial arts classes. And the boobs tend to get in the way, no decent man wants to punch a woman's boobs.

Having said that, prob not the case here. I think it's fair to match a smaller guy against a trans female. Nothing wrong with super featherweight class

Ds used to do kickboxing and there were girls l/women his age in the class. He said that they boys didn’t like fighting with the girls as their were always aware that they were stronger than even the much higher belts and were scared they’d hurt girls the same level.

i used to do martial arts too and he wasn’t very old before he could have taken me down (I did a different style which was better at defence so he never got mw in the ground but I never told him that was the reason as he was solid muscle. Even at my peak I’d have no chance)

puffyisgood · Today 13:27

Pro boxers who are starting out get spoon fed victims whose job it is to lose. Occasionally the victim is a specialist like this bloke [career record 12 wins, 279 losses, https://boxrec.com/en/box-pro/216597] but much more commonly it's someone pulled more or less straight off the street.

Yes, that's what's known as a journeyman boxer, they're there for target practice and to make a prospect look good. Mostly, they are adept at defensive boxing, throw few punches, but don't take as much punishment as you might expect.

They know when to go down, or the corner does, to throw the towel. They don't just pluck them off the street, the medicals for professional boxing are very stringent.

Boxing is an interesting one really because the weight classes do partly compensate for male advantages, outside of the open/super-heavyweight classes. Someone like this transman boxer, compared to a man of similar bodyweight, probably (post double mastectomy and many steroids) has similar body fat, slightly less bone mass, and slightly more muscle mass.

What I can't accept is the argument you sometimes see that because most sports other than weightlifting, rowing, and combat sports don't have weight classes, the greater body mass of TW has to be treated as 'tolerable' rather than intolerable unfairness.

Only 3 fights though. That’s not exactly burning up the rig is it?

Weight classes reduce one factor but anyone who has trained seriously in contact sports knows that pound for pound males still have a significant advantage and mixed competition is banned by all serious organisations.

yeah, maybe - as I said, this person has ingested a lot of synthetic testosterone. is exceptionally thickly muscled around the back, shoulders, and arms.

But will have a considerably thinner skull and a much lower density of fast twitch muscle fibres than a male opponent. This means that they are more vulnerable to serious injury to the head and less able to inflict any injury.

The answer is there are some hard choices to make in life, especially if one wants to compete in sport at a reasonable level.

The same handful of medicalised females on testosterone crop up again and again in articles about "transmen" engaged in competitive sport against men.

Patricio Manuel - Boxer (already discussed)

Chris Mosier - First Openly Trans Man to Compete in Men's Olympic Trials
https://www.them.us/story/chris-mosier-trans-man-compete-mens-olympic-trials

Schuyler Bailar - Swimmer
https://www.pinkmantaray.com/press

Ness Murby - Paralymics Men's Discus 2022
https://nessmurby.com/ and https://www.outsports.com/trans/2022/8/2/23283293/ness-murby-canada-paralympics-2024-transgender-man-discus

Verity Smith - UK Wheelchair Rugby
Verity seems to be playing on a men's wheelchair rugby team after sustaining serious injury when playing women's rugby whilst taking testosterone
https://bearworldmag.com/bearwatch-trans-rugby-player-and-activist-verity-smiths-inspiring-story/

All the others who are regularly cited as "transmen in sport" are women who medicalised after retiring from involvement in female-only competitive sport.

There are also some deceptive articles about other medicalised females, featuring misleading headlines or accounts that don't hold up to close scrutiny: they either "aim" to compete against men, or are involved in non-competitive sporting hobbies, or the "competitions" turn out to have been "fun games" with no published records of competitors - let alone results.

All well and good that these medicalised females are enjoying their involvement in non-competitive sporting activities and that others have found careers in sport-related activities or "inspirational advocacy" after they medicalised in retirement from women's sports.

However, it is a sign of the desperate need to bump up the numbers that they are routinely included alongside the few examples of transmen on T involved in competitive sport against men. - If there are more out there, they are not getting any publicity.

It's a staggering contrast with the number of males, medicalised or not, who are taking prizes and podium places in women's sporting competitions:

www.shewon.org/