Transmen in ANY sports

[MidCenturyLangClegs]

I've a niece who is identifying as a transman. She's not sporty my question doesn't apply to her herself.

But I was wondering about the fact that nobody really seems to be talking about what her options would be for sports if she was.

At the moment a trans-identifying male can compete with and against females in non-elite sports. For elite sports, many sporting bodies are telling him that it doesn't matter however low his testosterone levels are after using x-sex hormones, if he's gone through male puberty than he has to compete in the MALE/OPEN game.

All good, I think most of the sane world know he's a man and want to protect women's sports.

But what happens with transmen?
Testosterone, no matter what it is used for, is classed as a doping drug. So trans-identifying females who wish to participate at a semi-pro or pro level will not be able to take "gender affirming medicines" if they want a sports career. There is an absolute, hardline NO in their participation in sports within both the MALE, FEMALE and OPEN categories because of this.

So if sane rules apply, Lia Thomas will be refused to race against women but can compete in the Male and Open categories whilst taking oestrogen. That's inclusive to both males and females and respects Thomas' wish to have 'gender affirming medicine'.

But Iszac Henig, trans-identifying female aka transman who raced in the same championships as Thomas, couldn't take gender affirming medicine until after the event. She had her breasts removed but knew that if she took testosterone she would be thrown out of her sport for ever.

What's the answer here. No newspaper ever talks about this?

Unless they declare themselves non binary (like that US footballer) and everyone cries with delight. 🙄

sex is sex. Feelings and feelings. One is In changeable and relevant.

transgender man is so confusing. It apparently means the opposite to transman. FGS. Sporting Bodies need to be using Male and Female as unambiguous descriptors for the sex of an individual, when it comes to sport. Their gender identity and medical history, where relevant to the topic at hand, are secondary to that.

I think the reality is those exceptional women are just that, exceptional and men still out perform women in ultra distances overall.

Courtney Dewaulter is a truly phenomenal athlete. In 2023 she was the first to win Western States, Hardrock and UTMB in the same year. To achieve that is mind blowing. She holds the course records for those races, but they are still several hours behind the course records for the men.

At UTMB this year her time was 23:29:14. 24 men finished ahead of her. I think as sample sizing increases the sex difference will remain apparent barring the odd occasion where a woman does something truly phenomenal.

I also think Iszac Henig had an advantage over other female swimmers by having had a mastectomy. Not having to squeeze breasts into a race suit, the change in weight, body shape etc.

I can only think of female jockeys hanving at an advantage. But then it’s not sex segregated is it?

World Rugby uses "transgender men" to mean women who identify as men, anc "transgender women" to mean men who identify as women.

This is similar to the way many people use "transmen" and "transwomen", though none of these terms are well understood by large parts of the population. The obfuscation is deliberate.

unions

Correct.
There is never, never going to be a 100M sprinter trans man who beats a biological man. There is never going to be a situation where a trans man is ever any kind of threat to male athletes.
Therefore, nobody gives a crap.
Trans men are never going to take medals, sponsorships or opportunities away from biological men.
Trans men are never going to present an actual risk of injuring a biological man during the sport (rugby, boxing etc).
In short, men are under no threat in any shape or form from biological females.

If I were an awkward type, male, and lost a slot on an American team to a female transman on testosterone, I would sue for discrimination. Because after all, they're both men, right?

The decision to allow testosterone TUEs in elite sport for transmen has been followed by a decision to allow testosterone TUEs in recreational sport for men. The US is creeping towards deregulating testosterone in sport completely. I wonder what proportion of sports fans the world over think Lance Armstrong was just being entrepreneurial and that others just resent his 'success'.

It is noticeable that Eastern European women on testosterone were mostly designed to compete in female events, because women taking testosterone still don't beat men.

Yes, women doped up on testosterone in the 70s and 80s still hold a good number of world records, but not are close to the men’s.

Patricio Manuel is a trans man who is a professional boxer. He’s won three out of three professional bouts. The boxing federation is changing the rules to prohibit transgender people from competing with non-trans people.

https://talksport.com/sport/boxing/1476914/transgender-male-boxer-patricio-manuel-wins-third-fight/amp/

boxing federation is changing the rules to prohibit transgender people from competing with non-trans people.

Well, that makes no sense. Unless this odd form of words indicates the federation is signalling that boxers will compete in

• sex classes
• competitions with an (open) class that encompasses TUE.

E.g., I doubt anyone would object to a TW boxer competing against a boxer of the same sex class. I can understand that TM boxers with TUE would have restrictions on competing against the appropriate sex class.

However, none of that prevents participation in appropriate competition classes. If you've quoted the boxing federation, they could do with rewriting that section. If it's your paraphrase, then it could be better expressed.

MidCenturyLangClegs · Yesterday 16:20

That's sort of my point. She's not allowed to dope, but Thomas is.

Testosterone, for men and women, is a performance enhancing substance.

Oestrogen, for men, is a performance reducing substance, so he's not gaining an advantage by taking it, when competing with other men.

@SinnerBoy exactly this. Mediocre William "Lia" Thomas already had an advantage having gone through male puberty. Any hormone he'd taken would not mitigate against that advantage. It would just make him an even more mediocre male athlete.

Boxing already involves considerable risk of harm to participants. The risk of harm to transmen in bouts with natal men is that much greater, due to the proven greater risk to female brains and the proven greater punch power of natsl msles

"The boxing federation is changing the rules to prohibit transgender people from competing with non-trans people."

Good.

As a transman on testosterone isn't likely to beat a male athlete, thanks to the advantages of male puberty, no one gets het up about transmen in sport.

It's not like the cheating of allowing transwomen into the female category.

bellinisurge · Today 13:52

exactly this. Mediocre William "Lia" Thomas already had an advantage having gone through male puberty. Any hormone he'd taken would not mitigate against that advantage. It would just make him an even more mediocre male athlete.

Well, yes. What was he? 400th or something and then, even though he was taking Magic Oestrogen and had no advantage over women because Magic Oestrogen does that, he suddenly smashed all the women's records.

🙄

I looked up one of that person's fights on Youtube. Looked like a publicity stunt to me. The trans boxer seemed to be loaded with improbable amounts of steroids, HGH, or similar, & was up against a flabby 5-foot nothing nobody who had no fight experience & who was a good handful of weight classes out of his depth.

It will be interesting to see how many men are still convinced they are women and persist with sex denying drugs if they are banned from competing in women's sports.

In terms of rugby, this is World Rugby's current stance .
"Transgender men may play men's rugby having provided confirmation of physical ability.

this is the confirmation required:

1. Confirmation of physical ability which must include: Written acknowledgement and acceptance by the player of the associated risks of playing contact rugby with males who are statistically likely to be stronger, faster and heavier than them, given the predictions this combination of variables makes for injury risk, as described
2. Written confirmation from a medical practitioner or qualified coach with an understanding of the demands of rugby, to whom the player is known, that the player is in a physical condition to play and that this view is supported by a musculo-skeletal evaluation and/or other appropriate assessments. The Union/ competition can adopt the spirit of the guideline and make it fit the laws/realities of that particular

I think it would be a brave medico or coach who would sign this off.

There is a rationale for why confirmation is required which details physical differences between men and women

https://www.world.rugby/the-game/player-welfare/guidelines/transgender/men

In addition, as with men playing in women's sports, there is no mention of the male rugby players agreeing to play with/against women who think they are men. I am sure the average male rugby player would be devastated to cause injury.

So they don't get to take part in any competitive sport (at least not any where they have the remotest chance of winning anything). That's fine. Plenty of people ate already in that category.

Part of the problem is that a lot of these men are not taking drugs or anything they are just saying that they are women.

There is no trans person of either sex in the history of sport, or the world, who had ever been banned from playing competitive sports.

They are welcome to play in the sex category of their biological sex.
As is every other person.

No special exemptions for a feeling, sorry.

BODIES play sports.
Not minds.

Nobody is banned from anything. Not liking the (correct) decision doesn't mean you are "banned".

There is no trans person of either sex in the history of sport, or the world, who had ever been banned from playing competitive sports.

In practice, transmen could be banned from competing in the incorrect sex category (men) snd in the correct category (women) IF they are taking testosterone, which is foping.

But transgender people can always lobby for the creation of open / transgender categories in competitive sport, in which they could participate. There's nothing stopping them

Lots of people are on medication which means they can't compete in higher level sport. It's an unfortunate side effect of drug/doping rules aimed at fairness and protecting athletes and the integrity of the sport itself. It is what it is, trans people on medication are no different to anyone else. To say otherwise is transphobic innit. So same rules for everyone, it's fair.