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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rachel Meade - it's a win!

692 replies

BreadInCaptivity · 09/01/2024 12:35

x.com/legalfeminist/status/1744697995822526961?s=46&t=88gZvdSnTk70X8b2ZUPZtA

OP posts:
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38
MmePoppySeedDefage · 09/01/2024 19:12

Congratulations to Rachel: she and her legal team did brilliantly. It must have been awful for her.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 09/01/2024 19:22

This is great news

fabricstash · 09/01/2024 19:26

Excellent!

AlwaysGinPlease · 09/01/2024 19:26

This is fantastic news!

Sisterpita · 09/01/2024 19:27

This is fantastic news, so pleased for Rachel. 🤞for Jo Phoenix.

The summary list of discriminations is awful because Rachel had to go through this but very helpful for others.

Does anyone know if Rachel could be awarded costs?

TheFireflies · 09/01/2024 19:41

EasternStandard · 09/01/2024 15:54

Yes it’s fantastic

My assumption is every person wherever they are employed is safer

And Stonewall should really be defunct as losing money in payouts is not why anyone would use them

I wonder if my SWE membership costs will go up next year, I really resent paying them to “regulate” in this haphazard, incompetent and harmful way.

Karensalright · 09/01/2024 19:49

This judgement folks is the end of Stonewalls interference in the public sector

This judgement has gone beyond Foraster. It sets out in detail, and, in no uncertain terms, what public bodies and professional regulators, cannot do to professionals expressing their GC views outside and inside the work place.

It’s a clear handbook for Legal departments and HR alike, who will be very busy indeed re drafting, well pretty much everything, it will preclude them from seeking stonewall et al advice.

Judge Nicolle ..”it is self evident that there is no settled societal, political or legislative position regarding the rights of those seeking gender self ID such as but not limited to Stonewall.

YIPEEEEEE!

RowanMayfair · 09/01/2024 19:50

Another chip away at the 'chilling effect' for we social workers. Bless you Rachel you star ⭐️

Crikeyisthatthetime · 09/01/2024 20:10

Delighted to see to this covered by the guardian on-line. Properly.

musicalfrog · 09/01/2024 20:15

I would absolutely LOVE to now see Facebook awash with links to the case on everyone's feeds. Wouldn't that just be amazing? In your face Woolton!

Froodwithatowel · 09/01/2024 20:29

Thank you for the quote above re Stonewall: I've had the chance to read in depth and it's worth posting here that entire section.

Keep in mind this is a legal decision.

274. We consider it wholly inappropriate that an individual such as the Claimant espousing one side of the debate should be labelled discriminatory, transphobic and to pose a potential risk to vulnerable service users. That in effect equates her views as being equivalent to an employee/social worker espousing racially discriminatory or homophobic views. The opinions expressed by the Claimant could not sensibly be viewed as being transphobic when properly considered in their full context from an objective perspective, but rather her expressing an opinion contrary to the interpretation of legislation, or perhaps more accurately the amendment to existing legislation, advocated for by trans lobbying groups to include, but not limited to, Stonewall.

This is the end of being able to dismiss concerns about this being the 'same' as racism or homophobia. The end of it. Finite incantatum.

IcakethereforeIam · 09/01/2024 20:30

Heads definitely should be rolling. The financial and reputational damage to SWE and CoW should be immense. Imo, it's the PO scandal in so much as it affected Rachel, she was judged and found guilty by a prejudiced investigation following a completely spurious and likely malicious complaint from a self interested complainant. I could throw allegations of bigotry around with better grounds for it too.

Karensalright · 09/01/2024 20:35

@Froodwithatowel

indeed, glad you share my optimism, i know the workings of civil service, local authorities and probation, on Legals and HR oh to be a fly on the wall.

Sisterpita · 09/01/2024 20:36

There are quite a few posters on X with a legal background asking RMW to comment.

Farmageddon · 09/01/2024 20:36

Crikeyisthatthetime · 09/01/2024 20:10

Delighted to see to this covered by the guardian on-line. Properly.

Yes, but disappointingly they didn't even name Wolton or give any more information - just described they as a member of the public. Nor did they mention that this person holds a senior role in Sport England.

It's like as though they don't want to mention or draw attention to any bad behaviour by a trans person as it doesn't quite fit the victim narrative...quelle surprise.

PatatiPatatras · 09/01/2024 20:40
leonardo dicaprio gatsby GIF

I have to admit, I wouldn't have had the courage.
Hopefully there'll be an appeal with precedents set.

Thank you Rachel.

Karensalright · 09/01/2024 20:40

Yes but thankfully the judgement did and, themselves friendship with an examiner, on the case Noyce

LoobiJee · 09/01/2024 20:42

donquixotedelamancha · 09/01/2024 18:53

For her sake, obviously, I hope they don't appeal but it would be good for the cause if they did.

Just finished reading the full judgement and I think it's more broadly applicable than Maya's because it concerns treatment by the employer, not merely a termination. This employer took a lot of actions (in addition to suspending Rachel) that limited her ability to hold private views and that harassed her for her views. It's also notable that the regulator is on the hook and also that the employer is found to need to act fairly, even where the regulator is taking time to reach a decision.

It would be wonderful to have those as binding precident and I think this case is so egregious that its the perfect test case (from our PoV).

Edited

I’m just working my way through it. The reverse ferret in para 152 caught my eye.

Letter from Mr Wrobel of the First Respondent to the Claimant dated 15 November 2022
^^
152. Mr Wrobel advised the Claimant that having considered all of the evidence, and her grounds of appeal, she had concluded that a final written warning was not appropriate or proportionate in those circumstance and should be removed. No formal sanction should be applied. He did not, however, revisit whether the allegation of misconduct was appropriate but merely addressed, and lifted, the sanction imposed. He said that the position had changed substantially and concluded that there was no impairment to the Claimant’s ability to practise. However, this appeared to simply be that the Second Respondent had changed its position.
^^
Overall assessment of the Respondents’ witness evidence
^^
153. Whilst we accept that at the Respondents’ witnesses would have felt uncomfortable responding to hypotheticals, and expressing their own views regarding the gender identity/gender critical debate, we nevertheless consider that overall they were extremely reluctant to provide answers to hypothetical scenarios put to them by Ms Cunningham or by the Tribunal. The invariable response to such hypotheticals was that it would depend on the context. Even when it was then explained that the context was the exact equivalent of the situation which actually applied to the investigation concerning the Claimant’s use of social media there was a reluctance to engage in the questions postulated.
^^
154. We also consider it surprising that virtually all of the witnesses were reluctant to express any opinions, either personally or in the context of the organisation by which they were employed, regarding the status of gender critical beliefs and whether there was discussion and debate on the issue in their organisation. We consider this surprising given the topicality of the issue and consider that there would be a reasonable expectation that those engaged in social work, or the regulation of social workers, would have a heightened level of awareness on what has been a high profile and ongoing public debate.”

And also the para 153-154 refusal of the employer witnesses to express any view on the issue at the Tribunal. In contrast to the non-reluctance of the investigator to express their own personal opinion eg on transwomen in sport when deciding to find her guilty. It all smacks of “oh sugar, we were so convinced of our own moral high ground, we messed up, now let’s frantically backtrack”.

None of them seem to have asked the question “what was discriminatory about these FB posts?” That’s pretty woeful from social workers, surely.

Vebrithien · 09/01/2024 20:44

Sod Dry January.

Tonight, I raise my glass of brandy to Rachel, Maya and all the relentlessly brave women who HAVE NOT SHUT UP.

To those who have stood up and been counted, despite the appalling mental, physical, social and financial consequences.

To those have sent a few spare £, to garden support for cases like these.

Bloody wonderful, all of you!

Anothenamechange · 09/01/2024 20:45

Ah this is brilliant news! I'm sure she's been through hell but it's another plank propping up women's rights and another layer of protection for people who care about women's protection to speak the truth.

Congratulations Rachel and thank you for your bravery 💐

Karensalright · 09/01/2024 20:45

I could not see any scope for an appeal, it adheres the the forstater precedent.

Sisterpita · 09/01/2024 20:47

@LoobiJee alot of that could apply to the witnesses for the OU in Jo Phoenix’s case. They were all so focused on the trans students feelings and distress they couldn’t see that Jo on the opposite side of the argument was equally distressed. By not taking a neutral position they all effectively discriminated against Jo.

Cheesehound · 09/01/2024 20:50

This is brilliant. As a fellow SW I am very heartened by this news!

Karensalright · 09/01/2024 20:50

@Sisterpita Yes hope Jo draws some confidence from this.