Surrogacy-help me explain to my daughter why this is exploiting women

[happydappy2]

Teen daughter thinks surrogacy is fine, as an opportunity for the woman to earn money.
I've explained that only impoverished women do it, not wealthy ones.
It's not fair on the child to be removed from it's natural Mother/protector.
It will be a high risk pregnancy for the surrogate.
Ultimately benefits mens, not women or children.
There have been cases of paedophiles commissioning surrogates
She just doesn't get it though-what else can I ask her to think about to get her to understand how exploitative this is?
I asked her, would it be ok for me to buy a 10 yr old child? No of course not, so why is it ok for wealthy people to buy babies?

She's nearly 18, I really need to help her critical thinking on this....thanks

There are lots of reasons. First of all, there's the baby being separated from the mother at birth. Horrible trauma for an infant who is a being involved and couldn't consent to being a commercial product.

Get her to read this:
https://thecritic.co.uk/the-global-surrogacy-industry-is-proving-feminists-right/

And these:

https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/march-2023/surrogacy-and-the-rise-of-the-female-patriarch/

https://thecritic.co.uk/society-cannot-ignore-surrogacy/

It's a shame that current feminists are so timid and afraid to take women seriously.

Does ‘helping her critical thinking’ allow for her to come to a different conclusion to you? Genuine question, not being snarky. Are you trying to help her decide or convince her you are right?

I’ve not given the topic of surrogacy a huge amount of thought but there is a great book called ‘what money can’t buy, the moral limits of markets’ by Michael Sandel if she’s interested in considering this from a philosophical perspective. I don’t think he uses the example of surrogacy but I think buying organs was explored. The book discusses why we (generally) feel comfortable paying for some things but not others abd why some things are different morally.

It might be worth getting her to think about where her lines are - what about women being paid for organ donation? Being paid to be hurt or tortured? There’s got to be a line of where some things cannot be paid for.

My bottom lines on surrogacy are:

• it is 100% exploitative, that’s why it’s rich people paying poorer people. Even in the “nice” scenarios.
• the agencies which do it are even more exploitative - there are so many examples of babies being induced early (high medical bills which they skim), DNA tests proving the babies aren’t related to who they are supposed to be
• it is baby farming. Even in the theoretical altruistic scenario, should we really be able to commission a baby? That baby can never consent to the way they were born and removed from their mother.

At her age I can imagine she’s been convinced by the “sex work is real work” etc type of feminism. I certainly was at that age, and there’s a big link here. Took a long time to understand that just because individual women may claim to be empowered, it doesn’t mean that the bigger picture is empowering.

I once heard that the only people who need to feel empowered are those without power. Like people who end up being surrogates in Ukraine.

Some people just think it's ok (not me might I add!!) and there is nothing you can do. You can't 'help' her. She's an adult with opinions of her own and on this subject your opinions differ and that's that. I'm a vegan but don't 'help' my husband try to understand why I think eating meat is wrong / bad, I just let it go.

She is exploring her politics and arguing with the safest person she knows which is you. That is great. Encourage the debate hear her and close it down if it gets too heated, with, well let’s agree to differ, for now.

She will be back about other issues.

Well if someone can convince me of the benefits of surrogacy I'm all ears....happy for her to disagree with me-let's hear both sides of the argument-I think it's buying babies & cruel, problematic and not in the babies or surrogates best interests....but I'm open to others thoughts

Ask her what she thinks of calfs being separated from their mothers in the dairy industry.
When she inevitably says how awful it is, ask her why she has more compassion for cows than her fellow women.

as an opportunity for the woman to earn money

Point out that lots of things are an opportunity to earn money, it doesn't make them morally right

Sweatshops for example offer women an opportunity to earn money but they are still exploitative, with significant health and well being risks, for the benefit of richer people who think their money gives them the right to demand others risk their lives just to provide a want rather than a need

There aren't any benefits and I agree with you wholeheartedly but some just won't see it like that. There isn't really anything you can do 🤷🏻‍♀️

I know someone who bought a baby and no matter what anyone says to her, her counter argument of well I just REALLY REALLY wanted a baby supersedes absolutely anything in her mind.

Women are not yet just livestock to be used for rich people's pleasure.
I almost died in childbirth, it's a dangerous time.
I'm against slavery - humans should not be bought and sold.
Also the trauma of being removed from your mother must be terrible.

Has she read A Handmaid's Tale and 1984?

I know someone who had a child using donor eggs from a young lady in eastern Europe and her husband's sperm, but carried the baby herself. The narrative was that the financial compensation will enable the young woman to make a better future for herself. The amount she was paid was a few thousand quid at most, so not a life changing amount. The argument against doesn't feel as clearcut as surrogacy to me, but still felt it was exploitative and not entirely without risk to the donor either. Would be interesting to hear what you all think.

Does she think a human can own another human?
Therefore... can a baby be bought?

She is still young, I held very different opinions at 17, than I do now. At this stage you don't need to change her mind, however the book mentioned above (Michael Sandel) sounds interesting and I would have read that at 17. (I did A level Christian Theology with Ethics).

Like abortion some will believe it is wrong in all circumstances, some that it should be available for all circumstances and then the vast majority on the scale in the middle, surrogacy is the same.

I think it's great you are discussing this together. I hope my child will discuss these kind of topics with me when they are older. I think that as long as you share the points made above, but give her space to consider the different sides to the argument, she'll be able to make a well informed decision that will feel like her own view. But as mentioned above, her views may well change over time.

So you want her to think like you basically, how is that critical thinking?

No she wants her to question accepted mainstream thinking. Surrogacy is promoted by the mass media, TV shows, news outlets, celebrities, big business, medical establishment - being in favour of it is like critically thinking Coca Cola is the best drink ever.

Apart from anything else, because most jobs don't carry an outside risk of death, disability, permanent incontinence etc. and for those that do, we regulate the hell out of them to make them as safe as we possibly can (unlike surrogacy, prostitution) ...

My teen girls hadnt really thought about it, saw celebrities were doing it and thought it was fine. To be fair after explaining my view on it they both ended up agreeing with me.

Also a friend has recently adopted an older child who needs intense therapy. She has been told by a prominent child psychiatrist that permanent separation from your mother as a new born is "a trauma" - reason for separation irrelevant.

If your daughter thinks it's fine, would she be prepared to do it for someone?

If not, why not?

Of course at 18 she presumably knows nothing of pregnancy and childbirth so it's easy to say in theory. The reality, of course is different.

What sort of media work best for her? There are loads of books, YouTube documentaries, podcasts I could recommend.

The Free Birth Society did a series of three podcasts that I found really interesting and informative.

open.spotify.com/episode/6A4w7NWqasroGrXjzXuE2N

Here are the other two:

open.spotify.com/episode/41iwLJAsuE4IyuWR8oavuF

open.spotify.com/episode/2LHMhNw1BzrNZjkXpbGkHm

Here's an interview with a young woman whose mother died following a surrogacy pregnancy.

podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/venus-rising/id1481872967?i=1000560312080

Not at all, I want her to make up her own mind, but I have lots of arguments against surrogacy, what are yours for it?

Well seeing as parents have parental rights until the child is 18, they do kind of own that baby they paid for-or convince me otherwise

Social media is full of same sex couples who might mention the surrogates but never the egg donors. The whole thing is horrific. It’s exploitation and manipulation. Tik tok is full of wealthy men exploiting their surrogate born children and they just horrify me. Pregnancy and child birth is incredibly hard - your body is never the same again. Egg retrieval and implantations are not easy procedures. These women do that with barely a mention from these exploitative men.
The current worst two only mentioned the egg donor like she was some kind of meat - saying they wanted someone with good hair! Hideous.