Surrogacy-help me explain to my daughter why this is exploiting women

[happydappy2]

Teen daughter thinks surrogacy is fine, as an opportunity for the woman to earn money.
I've explained that only impoverished women do it, not wealthy ones.
It's not fair on the child to be removed from it's natural Mother/protector.
It will be a high risk pregnancy for the surrogate.
Ultimately benefits mens, not women or children.
There have been cases of paedophiles commissioning surrogates
She just doesn't get it though-what else can I ask her to think about to get her to understand how exploitative this is?
I asked her, would it be ok for me to buy a 10 yr old child? No of course not, so why is it ok for wealthy people to buy babies?

She's nearly 18, I really need to help her critical thinking on this....thanks

Parents do have rights as well as responsibilities. Obviously not the right to harm or exploit them.

https://www.gov.uk/parental-rights-responsibilities

I can’t answer for happydappy but I think it could be argued that it benefits men more than women because men get to pass on their genes to the child through their sperm but often a donor egg is used so the woman has no genetic link to the baby.

Fantastic post! Thank you! 👏👏👏

Type in ‘surrogacy’ on bbc sounds. There are a lot of episodes on surrogacy including ‘Analysis’ is ethical surrogacy possible?
I recently read or listened to something(probably bbc too) about surrogacy in the US- and how actresses and models are using surrogates to have children while relatively young but not take a break in their career: that is a very interesting debate and raises a plethora of questions.
On the other hand, a minority of women may genuinely enjoy surrogacy? What about if a woman wants to help a friend/family member?

Around 60 babies spent months in a basement cared for to the extent possible but without parents - all have now all been united with their parents.

I would be very skeptical of that number. If you combine Covid lockdowns and the war I can’t believe it is only 60 babies who have been abandoned and I don’t believe they have all been picked up by their intended parents. Once these babies hit a certain age a lot of baby buyers don’t want them anymore. Over the last 4 years in must be higher than 60.

What about if a woman wants to help a friend/family member?

I think that's very nice, however, can a woman who changes her mind having already agreed do so easily? Say for example, you have sisters, one of whom agrees to carry a baby for the other in theory. The family all know this and all are happy about it. However, when the time comes she realises the offer was rash and she can't actually go through with it. How does she let her sister down? What about their parents, who don't want to see the sister who can't carry a baby being denied a chance to have a child? I suspect there's a lot of emotional pressure applied, even if people don't realise that they're doing it. I don't think most people think that surrogate pregnancy is all that big a deal and if you agreed you wouldn't be off the hook without a relationship changing fallout.

^"Ahhh, but it's sweet, it's really sad when someone can't have a baby. It's really kind of someone to do that!"

I know I used to think of having a baby from a childless point of view when much younger....

I would stop debating this issue with her and talk about pregnancy and newborn stage with her at other times. Unless you understand the mother baby bond, and the difficulties of pregnancy you are not going to see past the fluffy celebrity glowing pregnancy body bounce back no issues pregnancies

@quantumbutterfly Were they united with their surrogates or their birth parents?

The agency took custody at birth and to the best of my knowledge all of the babies (from that agency / that basement) were eventually reunited with the commissioning parents / purchasing parents (whose names were on the birth certificates)

To the poster who said be skeptical of that number - I agree, this was the story of ONE agency and one basement. To the best of my knowledge there are no reliable stats which would include all the agencies let alone all of the agencies and all the private agreements.

but there's this https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/26/the-bombs-wont-stop-us-business-brisk-at-ukraines-surrogacy-clinics

'According to data from surrogacy clinics in Ukraine, more than 1,000 children have been born in Ukraine to surrogate mothers since the beginning of the Russian invasion, 600 of whom were born at the BiotexCom clinic in Kyiv, one of Europe’s largest surrogacy clinics.

“Even in the first months of the war, foreign couples would still come here from all over the world to pick up their children,” Ihor Pechenoha, medical director at BiotexCom, told the Guardian. “The number of requests today are at a prewar level, and we receive more requests than we can take.” '

There have been quite a few pieces in the press recently, glowing articles of how men in same sex relationships have used a surrogate to acquire a baby (or two.) To create their family. Any criticism is silenced by accusations of homophobia....But unlike with adoption where potential parents are vetted, there seems to be no one checking the background of people commisioning surrogates to give them babies. Sometimes it is literally wealthy white males, using a black woman to gestate a child for them. This would appear to me, a very worrying trend, of males exploiting women for their reproductive labour.

"There have been cases of paedophiles commissioning surrogates"

A stretch to call them paedophiles imo (though some people are, given previous controversies) - but it may be worth looking into Shane Dawson and his other half.
They recently used a surrogate for two baby boys and they way that they talk about it is kind of gross, at least to me.
I believe they used one woman for the egg donation, and another woman for the actual pregnancy and birth process - Then they wanted "a boy from Shane and a girl from his other half", so picking the genders, but 10 embryos had been successfully fertilised. The others were just "thrown away" basically.
Just overall the way they talk about it is gross imo.
Also the "wearing" birth/motherhood type of aesthetic afterwards - posing in a hospital bed with the newborns without the woman who gave birth anywhere in site - trying to look all exhausted as if they've done literally anything at all other than wait.

It depends heavily on context imo -But at the same time, this one just gives the heeby jeebies.
I actually used to like Shane at one point believe it or not!

Here's another example https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-01/australian-who-fathered-surrogate-twins-facing-abuse-charges/5710796

If aspiring British surrogates sign up to this organisation they get all sorts of benefits:

www.mysurrogacyjourney.com/become-a-surrogate

I'm not sure how a kid could ever get over the possibility that their birth mother gave them away and went non contact to obtain a Lovehoney gift voucher, a family Merlin Pass and £300 worth of clothes. Or maybe it was the offer of a free will that swung it.

It feels very very wrong

a free will

"Yes, I sold you to a veerryy nice couple I'd met twice for a top of the range vibrator."

Hmm. Yes. That'd be an interesting one for the counselling session.

Having been through many years of fertility issues and knowing the pain that comes with it, I would 100% surrogate for someone. Not for money but to end that for someone. By the time I finally had my baby I was in my 40's so not sure anyone would want me now!

I think there's different issues; are women doing it for the reasons I would, or because they need the money.

You are essentially a vessel carrying their baby. Lots of kids don't find out they're adopted until they are teens so I doubt being handed over at birth would have lasting damage.

Pay one of her mates to mention how disgusting it is and hey presto!

I doubt being handed over at birth would have lasting damage.

A minimal, tiny amount of research and a listen to the voices of some of those now adult children will end those doubts for you, I promise.

How ever sad and distressed an adult may be, however much they may want a baby, does not excuse doing this to a child. And does not outweight the massive ethical issues. We live in times where adults need to re learn that wanting something isn't the most important thing.

I just find it astonishing how far those who boast about acting out of compassion are prepared to tolerate any damage, abuse or indignity to those vulnerable enough to be used to satisfy the wants of others.

Pretty sure there is a United Nations report/article somewhere that raises issues of surrogacy and infant adoption in terms of children’s rights. I’ll try and find it. Very interesting and is a global view.

https://www.unicef.org/media/115331/file#:~:text=Children%20born%20through%20surrogacy%20have,of%20the%20Child%20(CRC).

Maybe a better approach is to pose some questions for her to consider.
-If her opinion is based on a belief women should be able to choose to do what they want with their own bodies. What about selling their organs? Is that ok, if no why not? How is that different (it’s not even a human being)
-Why is surrogacy so much more common amongst women in extreme poverty.
-should we allow anyone to do anything they want with their bodies or others so long as their is “payment” and “consent”

But I think you should also spend time listening and considering her points too. Even if you feel certain I think things are smoother if both asides are open to listening.

Knowing the dangers of carrying a child that does not share your DNA and the heightened risk, would you really be prepared to risk your own life and the future of any child you already had to do this? Or do you dismiss the dangers despite the surrogates who have reported their health issues?

And have if you have found a positive surrogate child’s reported experienced (reported as an adult) for this transactional start to life, can you please post the link. Because I have heard the opposite testimony, I am suspicious of any adult who dismisses these children’s testimony while framing the purchasing parents desire for a child as the focus here.

I do have sympathy for adults who cannot have children. I look forward to you posting a non paid for (or sponsored) testimony from
an adult child of surrogacy who declares they are completely happy and unimpacted at all by their conception, purchase and delivery.

Not weighing in on surrogacy, but egg retrieval is easy. I’ve done it twice.

Egg retrieval should never be considered 'easy'. The process of inducing ovulation artificially can have serious risks for the woman, including death.

I mean, theoretically but so can having grommets put in your five year old. Realistically you do some injections and then you get put to sleep and wake up with the eggs out of you. I don’t disagree with your overall argument but I think it doesn’t help with trying to make the point to your daughter if you say things like “egg retrieval is dangerous” and she’s seeing loads of stuff online about women having IVF egg retrievals daily.