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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What do you think should happen to the Gender Recognition Act (GRA)?

604 replies

TERFisTHEnewTREND · 01/01/2024 22:28

Personally, I can't believe this act was ever passed! I know 2004 was a different time, but still!

I believe that the only way of moving past the gender madness in law is to revoke the GRA. "Gender" is about as useful as someone's favorite type of music, so it has no place on a legal document.

As for what should happen to those who already have a GRA... well, I think some of them are owed an apology by those who told them that this piece of paper would change their sex (which it doesn't).

What do others think?

OP posts:
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MargotBamborough · 02/01/2024 17:02

PlanetJanette · 02/01/2024 17:00

‘Go to war with Ireland’ exposes your deep deep ignorance of the issue.

Go on - I’m waiting for you to explain what this wonderful renegotiated Good Friday Agreement looks like, since you are so convinced it is easy.

It looks exactly like the current version, only without the invisible, imaginary requirement to let penis people trample all over the rights of women and girls.

PlanetJanette · 02/01/2024 17:03

MargotBamborough · 02/01/2024 17:00

I understand all of those things, yes.

None of them are a good reason for remaining wedded to it if it is being used as a sword, rather than a shield, by men's rights activists to strip women and girls of their most basic rights.

Still not telling us what this new Good Friday Agreement looks like stripped of the ECHR obligations?

You should be able to do that if is going to be so easy, right?

EasternStandard · 02/01/2024 17:03

Boomboom22 · 02/01/2024 16:28

This is so so concerning. This court basically is saying men or boys can say they want to be or are a girl and then states have to pay for plastic surgery? Wtf?

Age inclusive meaning let kids be groomed by rainbow families and schools.

No divorce, as long as consent is actually given might be ok but seems dangerously like abuse and being forced to stay married.

Quick access to procedures meaning no therapy to see why they want to mutilate their body to the point of likely disability, no sexual function and loss of healthy life years.

I note no mention of articles 8 right to private life is considered of all the women in sport or toilets, who these handouts are causing issues to more than one article.

The more I see the more I think we should certainly leave this court, they are pushing through insanity.

Wth

Age inclusive?

Christ

PomegranateOfPersephone · 02/01/2024 17:04

It is an interesting argument isn’t it. If you don’t let penis people watch your teenage daughters get changed and provide intimate care for your grandmother then the island of Ireland will erupt into terrorism which may spill over into the island of Britain…

Women subject yourselves for the greater good, for the sake of peace in our isles allow penis people to use you however they wish.

Also interesting that for more than one penis person claiming to be a woman, submission, subjugation and being used by other penis people is the very definition of womanhood and what excites them most about the idea of themselves as women.

PlanetJanette · 02/01/2024 17:04

MargotBamborough · 02/01/2024 17:02

It looks exactly like the current version, only without the invisible, imaginary requirement to let penis people trample all over the rights of women and girls.

OK. So how do the concerns of the parties that insisted on ECHR membership (for reasons you obviously do not understand) get addressed in the absence of the ECHR?

EasternStandard · 02/01/2024 17:04

This thread, alongside the WHO one, is doing a good job at laying out just how bad these laws are

PlanetJanette · 02/01/2024 17:05

PomegranateOfPersephone · 02/01/2024 17:04

It is an interesting argument isn’t it. If you don’t let penis people watch your teenage daughters get changed and provide intimate care for your grandmother then the island of Ireland will erupt into terrorism which may spill over into the island of Britain…

Women subject yourselves for the greater good, for the sake of peace in our isles allow penis people to use you however they wish.

Also interesting that for more than one penis person claiming to be a woman, submission, subjugation and being used by other penis people is the very definition of womanhood and what excites them most about the idea of themselves as women.

Yet another poster who doesn’t understand that the GRA2004 doesn’t regulate access to single sex spaces or provision of single sex intimate care.

You folk don’t even know what you’re arguing for.

EasternStandard · 02/01/2024 17:09

PlanetJanette · 02/01/2024 17:05

Yet another poster who doesn’t understand that the GRA2004 doesn’t regulate access to single sex spaces or provision of single sex intimate care.

You folk don’t even know what you’re arguing for.

Politicians should get the EqA changed

Although I don’t think it resolves this list in pp

INTERNATIONAL HUMAN RIGHTS LAW BENCHMARKS

RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINED GENDER IDENTITY

STATES' OBLIGATION TO LEGALLY RECOGNISE ONE'S GENDER IDENTITY

FRAMEWORK FOR COMPLYING WITH STATES' LGR OBLIGATION

  • DEPATHOLOGISATION
  • AGE INCLUSIVE
  • NO DIVORCE REQUIREMENT
  • QUICK, TRANSPARENT AND ACCESSIBLE PROCEDURE
MargotBamborough · 02/01/2024 17:12

PlanetJanette · 02/01/2024 17:05

Yet another poster who doesn’t understand that the GRA2004 doesn’t regulate access to single sex spaces or provision of single sex intimate care.

You folk don’t even know what you’re arguing for.

Yes we do. For the GRA to be stripped of any real meaning so that it can no longer be used to harm the general population.

You say this can't be done due to the completely imaginary provisions of the ECHR which silently and invisibly ensure that what trans people want trumps everyone else's rights, despite this being written absolutely nowhere in the treaty. And that the only way round that is to leave the ECHR which means the Troubles will start up again (because of course that was all about whether a woman can have a penis or not and nothing to do with religious sectarianism) and people will die and it will all be the fault of those nasty TERFs.

PS - you forgot your clown shoes. 🤡

MargotBamborough · 02/01/2024 17:14

PlanetJanette · 02/01/2024 17:04

OK. So how do the concerns of the parties that insisted on ECHR membership (for reasons you obviously do not understand) get addressed in the absence of the ECHR?

If the Irish government feels so strongly about that aspect it could lobby the ECtHR to stop being twats and making up the law as they go along so the original intent of the treaty can be preserved. Just an idea.

ArabellaScott · 02/01/2024 17:15

Everyone knows EHCR stands for Enormous Having-Cock Rights.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 02/01/2024 17:16

“Yet another poster who doesn’t understand that the GRA2004 doesn’t regulate access to single sex spaces or provision of single sex intimate care.“

But that is exactly what is happening as a direct consequence of the GRA. It is illegal to ask to see a GRC, it is illegal to disclose that someone is not the sex that he or she claims to be. Women can no longer challenge men in their spaces or care providers without risking an accusation of perpetrating hate crime.

PlanetJanette · 02/01/2024 17:17

EasternStandard · 02/01/2024 17:09

Politicians should get the EqA changed

Although I don’t think it resolves this list in pp

INTERNATIONAL HUMAN RIGHTS LAW BENCHMARKS

RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINED GENDER IDENTITY

STATES' OBLIGATION TO LEGALLY RECOGNISE ONE'S GENDER IDENTITY

FRAMEWORK FOR COMPLYING WITH STATES' LGR OBLIGATION

  • DEPATHOLOGISATION
  • AGE INCLUSIVE
  • NO DIVORCE REQUIREMENT
  • QUICK, TRANSPARENT AND ACCESSIBLE PROCEDURE

I’m not sure why that poster posted that.

That is essentially a policy proposition by a committee of the Council of Europe. It does not reflect the existing jurisprudence of the ECtHR.

PencilsInSpace · 02/01/2024 17:18

ArabellaScott · 02/01/2024 17:15

Everyone knows EHCR stands for Enormous Having-Cock Rights.

It's ECHR - Enormous Cock-Haver Rights

PlanetJanette · 02/01/2024 17:18

MargotBamborough · 02/01/2024 17:14

If the Irish government feels so strongly about that aspect it could lobby the ECtHR to stop being twats and making up the law as they go along so the original intent of the treaty can be preserved. Just an idea.

But here again you display your ignorance.

I didn’t ask about the Irish Government. I asked about the parties who insisted on the ECHR conditions in the GFA.

You said negotiating the ECHR elements out would be easy. So how are those concerns from 1998 going to be addressed?

PlanetJanette · 02/01/2024 17:20

PomegranateOfPersephone · 02/01/2024 17:16

“Yet another poster who doesn’t understand that the GRA2004 doesn’t regulate access to single sex spaces or provision of single sex intimate care.“

But that is exactly what is happening as a direct consequence of the GRA. It is illegal to ask to see a GRC, it is illegal to disclose that someone is not the sex that he or she claims to be. Women can no longer challenge men in their spaces or care providers without risking an accusation of perpetrating hate crime.

Nope.

Trans people with a GRC can access single sex spaces in some cases because of the Equality Act, not the Gender Recognition Act.

MargotBamborough · 02/01/2024 17:21

PlanetJanette · 02/01/2024 17:18

But here again you display your ignorance.

I didn’t ask about the Irish Government. I asked about the parties who insisted on the ECHR conditions in the GFA.

You said negotiating the ECHR elements out would be easy. So how are those concerns from 1998 going to be addressed?

The amended GFA could contain a provision that despite the UK's withdrawal from the ECHR, it continues to submit to the jurisdiction of the ECtHR in relation to matters arising in connection with the application of the Good Friday Agreement.

Seems like a relatively simple fix, no?

LoobiJee · 02/01/2024 17:21

I’ve forgotten what the definition of sealioning is, but going back to the topic of the thread……

If you’ve watched the Ruth Bader Ginsberg film you’ll be familiar with the argument that courts / judges are influenced by the developing social context they exist within in.

That point (albeit not in those exact words) is recognised in the Council of Europe Report I linked to.

20 “The European Court of Human Rights (the Court) is the judicial institution that has dealt with the largest number of cases related to gender identity and transgender persons. It has embraced evolving social realities…

31 “In conclusion, the Court’s case law has dynamically evolved since it declared a violation of Article 8 concerning the recognition of transgender persons for the first time almost 30 years ago in the case of B. v. France in 1992.37 What was considered a breakthrough at the time needs to continu- ously evolve not only to reflect the evolution of societal norms and attitudes with regard to gender identity but to offer genuine protection to all, including transgender and intersex persons.”

42 “The level of protection for LGR achieved at a certain point in time cannot be considered locked once and for all. Like all human rights, it requires adaptation to present-day needs and adjustments of the legal framework according to impact assessments and latest international trends…

65 “Overall, this thematic review process has shown solid benefits in sup- porting planned or on-going reforms in the field of LGR, enhancing the visi- bility of the human rights issues raised by LGR, facilitating dialogue between all stakeholders and importantly, giving a voice to transgender and intersex persons in the discussions of the issues that affect them in their lives.”

72 Member States should examine their civil status requirements for LGR to ensure that such requirements do not affect the acquired rights of the spouses and children, and that a solution to protect those rights is in place, in line with the Court’s jurisprudence.

73 Member States should ensure that LGR procedures for children centre on the best-interest-of-the-child principle and should review explicit or implicit age restrictions that may obstruct that principle in order to ensure children’s access to legal recognition, health and security.

Here’s how Council of Europe defines gender identity:

“Gender identity: is understood to refer to each person’s deeply felt internal and individual experience of gender, which may or may not correspond with the sex assigned at birth, including the personal sense of the body (which may involve, if freely chosen, modification of bodily appearance or func- tion by medical, surgical, or other means) and other expressions of gender, including dress, speech and mannerisms.”

Gender/Sex marker: Legal sex appearing on documents (birth certificates, identification documents, etc.

Legal Gender Recognition: is understood as the legal recognition of a person’s gender identity, including name, sex/gender marker and other gender-related information, which may be reflected in surnames, social security numbers/personal identification numbers, titles etc., in public registries, records, identification documents (identity cards, passports, driving licences) and other similar documents (educational certificates etc).

Sex: refers to the biological characteristics used to define humans as female or male. These sets of biological characteristics are not mutually exclusive.

Transgender: is an umbrella expression referring to persons who have a gen- der identity different from predominant social expectations based on the person’s sex assigned at birth.

The report took those definitions from a Council of Europe glossary, the link to it is broken though.

No idea what they mean by “not mutually exclusive”.

I note the phrase “is understood as” in the definition of legal gender recognition, which sounds like it’s not prescribed in statute and could be described as a “political definition”. Lol.

ArabellaScott · 02/01/2024 17:22

PlanetJanette · 02/01/2024 17:18

But here again you display your ignorance.

I didn’t ask about the Irish Government. I asked about the parties who insisted on the ECHR conditions in the GFA.

You said negotiating the ECHR elements out would be easy. So how are those concerns from 1998 going to be addressed?

And I put it to you, Planty Janty, that you are yet to provide a solution to the problem of nuclear fission, and therefore can have no real opinion on the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement! FORSOOK! Get outta that one, eh? Eh?!

PomegranateOfPersephone · 02/01/2024 17:23

“And I put it to you, Planty Janty, that you are yet to provide a solution to the problem of nuclear fission, and therefore can have no real opinion on the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement! FORSOOK! Get outta that one, eh? Eh?!”

🤣

MargotBamborough · 02/01/2024 17:24

Of course, this is all highly theoretical, because in the event of a test case based on women's right to have words for themselves and their own single sex spaces, and the conflict between that and this completely imaginary right for men to falsify their legal documents, IF the ECtHR held that the UK, as a sovereign country, could NOT change its own laws around gender recognition to protect the rights of 51% of the population, and IF the UK, as a consequence, announced its intention to withdraw from the ECHR, that would be an absolute fucking PR disaster of absolutely fucking epic proportions. There would be nothing left to withdraw from because it would all have gone up in flames.

PlanetJanette · 02/01/2024 17:24

MargotBamborough · 02/01/2024 17:21

The amended GFA could contain a provision that despite the UK's withdrawal from the ECHR, it continues to submit to the jurisdiction of the ECtHR in relation to matters arising in connection with the application of the Good Friday Agreement.

Seems like a relatively simple fix, no?

Nope. Because there is no legal basis for partial application of the ECtHR’s jurisdiction. And partial jurisdiction wouldn’t work practically.

What precisely do you mean by ‘matters arising in connection with the Good Friday Agreement’? Who defines that?

A little tip - none of this is as simple as you blissfully and ignorantly claim. You should just follow that previous poster who just admitted she didn’t really care if the troubles restarted.

LoobiJee · 02/01/2024 17:26

Anyway the point about “evolving social realities” is that the GRA 2003 was the result of decades of behind the scenes strategising and campaigning and tactical court cases by those promoting the right of males to self identify as women. That lobbying has continued in the two decades since.

Those campaigners want the dial to only ever move in their favour at the expense of women and children. But human rights apply to women and children just as much as they apply to males who want special entitlements. And the “evolving social realities” which the courts respond to can also include evolving social recognition of the harm to women and girls.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 02/01/2024 17:28

“Trans people with a GRC can access single sex spaces in some cases because of the Equality Act, not the Gender Recognition Act.”

The GRA came first. Repealing that would be the beginning of sorting out the mess which is a direct result of that.

The Equality Act can be sorted out at the same time so that protection for people who believe in sexed souls can be covered by the protected characteristic of belief or perhaps mental health if treatment is required.

EasternStandard · 02/01/2024 17:31

PlanetJanette · 02/01/2024 17:17

I’m not sure why that poster posted that.

That is essentially a policy proposition by a committee of the Council of Europe. It does not reflect the existing jurisprudence of the ECtHR.

Ok so not for us?

If we can get single biological sex spaces back, get gender ideology out of schools, plain English fact based language back and no compelled speech I think there may be a co existence with the GRA intact

Maybe. I mean I don’t love the idea of legal falsity for sex, it’s madness, but if you made all those changes women and children would be safeguarded from individual male decisions.

Unless I’ve missed an impact in which case I’ll reassess

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