Government definition of gender identity ideology

[AbnerBrown]

The definition in the draft Department of Education guidance is “the belief that a person can have a gender that is different to their sex”.

Does anyone else think this is a shit definition? Like defining Christianity as “the belief that a person can have a faith as set out by the doctrines of the Church”?

I’m not a Christian but it’s very clear to me that some people have such a faith. Similarly, I think gender is baloney but it’s very clear to me that some people have a strong sense of gender. It always seems utterly incoherent to me, but it seems to be something they have. So by this definition I am a believer of GII.

I’m struggling to form an alternative. I’d strongly prefer a definition that covers “the belief that every person has an internal sense of their gender” but is this enough?

“The belief that every person has an internal sense of their gender that can be different to their sex” doesn’t quite work as how can gender match sex when they are such different concepts?

But “… that can be different to societal gender norms” may capture the gender critical gender non-conforming?

overthinking due to hangover. Other thoughts?

How do they define gender?

I prefer the way it was put in para 107 of the Forstater appeal decision - gender identity belief is a belief that everyone has a gender which may be different from their sex at birth and which effectively trumps sex so that trans men are men and trans women are women.

I’d strongly prefer a definition that covers “the belief that every person has an internal sense of their gender” but is this enough?

What?
I think you're overthinking but I've no idea what you're driving at. That sentence above will be refuted by every person who doesn't have 'an internal sense of their gender'.

Whereas:
“the belief that a person can have a gender that is different to their sex”.

That sounds a fairly reasonable basic definition of gender identity ideology to me but of course means nothing without a definition of wtf 'gender' is.

They don’t define gender, so it’s all meaningless anyway

@ErrolTheRednosedDragon I want a definition of GII that doesn’t cover me. I am GC but worry I’m covered by their definition. If it’s a definition that says the belief is that “everyone has an internal sense of gender” then I definitely don’t have this belief.
But I’m definitely overthinking 😐

At least they haven't used the phrase 'sex assigned at birth'. I dont' think the definiton actually captures gender ideology accurately. It's not JUST that people have a different gender from their sex. It goes further than that. I would characterise it as the belief that a person may have a different gender from their sex, and that gender supplants sex in all relevant circumstances. If a person with the male sex said that he had a female gender, and it stopped there that doesn't impact on my life at all. it's a private belief, much like a person's religion or star sign. But gender ideology wants 'gender' to take over from the concept of sex, so the male with the female gender identity wants to be regarded as and treated in society as a female for all intents and purposes.

I think that not attempting to define gender is wise. Nobody who believes in it can define it so why bother?

It would be more accurate to define it as “the belief that a person can have a gender".

I don't believe that people 'have' a gender. Gender is imposed on us by society because of our sex. It's not something that we 'have'.

The difficulty I have is that I believe people who say they have a gender. I don’t understand it but I believe they have this thing.

Hmm, or do I actually? Am I just being polite, even inside my own head? Maybe I just believe that they believe they have this, just like I believe that people with a religion believe that they they have soul, although I don’t believe that they do.

No, I think I do believe it, but think it’s something I’d call a personality. But then perhaps I do believe we all do have a gender if it’s just a synonym with personality. Am I in fact a genderist? But then I don’t see how it can match with sex, unless it’s one of two very odd personalities that change over time and space according to prevailing social norms.

To me it seems more like “the belief that a person can have a gender AND that anyone else should give a shit".

That people have always existed who wish they were the other sex and are willing to change themselves to present a simulacrum of that. True.

That the NHS should provide them with drugs and surgery to that end. Debatable.

That we should tell children from an early age that they might be one of those people and that blocking puberty will leave their options open without doing any harm. False.

That we should not discriminate against them arbitrarily. Agree.

That if they try hard enough we should give them a piece of paper. Pointless.

That we should falsify historical records and ID documents. Disagree (I think both birth sex and trans status if applicable should be recorded/disclosed).

That we should treat them in law as if they had always been the sex they wish they were, irrespective of the effect on people actually of that sex. Disagree. Because not reality-compliant.

I agree with the definition of 'the belief that everybody has a gender and it may be different to their sex' and 'the belief that gender trumps sex in every consideration'.

Because it is a definition of the ideology, and the ideology is that you must conform to the idea that you have a gender, everybody has a gender, and be obedient to the hierarchies and beliefs within.

That's the source of the problem. If it was merely a belief and a live and let live/religious tolerance situation we could all go and do something more interesting and women's rights and child safeguarding wouldn't be a cause of extreme worry. The ideology and its imposition while seeing everyone non compliant as a heretic is the problem; not the belief that one has a gender or guardian angel or lives on a flat earth etc.

But yes: let's define 'gender'. And 'sex'.

It’s up to the lobby groups who have been promoting a belief in gender identity theory to school pupils who need to define what gender identity theory is, and what gender is, if they think the DfE guidance has defined it incorrectly.

Dictionary definition of belief: "an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof"

I accept that some are in the grip of gender ideology despite the lack of evidence or even clear definitions. These people exist just as those do who are gripped by other conspiracy theories, flat earthism, scientology, the supernatural etc.

Positioning this ideology alongside other beliefs seems to me to be helpful? It enables the debate to be had about whether we should allow narrow ideological influences with no proof to rampage across schools.

Adding GII as a belief, or being legally protected for having that belief, was very noticeable as something the TRAs did not lobby for. The logical conclusion from that is - because they want the notion of 94+ genders to be real.

The difficulty I have is that I believe people who say they have a gender. I don’t understand it but I believe they have this thing

It’s just stereotypes - good, old-fashioned stereotypes. That makes it easier to understand. They genuinely believe in ‘girl things’ and ‘boy things’ and if they’re a girl/woman and they don’t like ‘girl things’ or don’t ‘look like a girl’, then the only answer is that they must not be a girl. Having worked out that by their faulty, regressive logic, then that leaves them with two options: non-binary or boy.

I saw what I’m 99.9% sure was a transman on a mainstream TV programme. Seemed very nice, no mention of gender, no showing off, no victimhood - great person, as far as I could see, but I wanted to scream at them that they could still be a girl and look like that/do those things.

The gov definition above is ok. Really, I’d like the TRAs to tell us their definition - and get tied in the usual knots because it’s illogical and contradictory.

Gender is what you are assumed to be like (very broadly speaking) based on your perceived sex. This roughly corresponds with masculinity and femininity in terms of socially determined (and often contradictory and inconsistent) traits. I think in that sense we all have a gender; society assumes women to be like this and men to be like that, differentiated by what sex they are.

Gender identity is a more self-reflexive sense of one's own being that often conflates sex and gender role stereotypes - e.g. you'll often see people using "female" and "feminine" interchangeably, even though one describes the body and one describes (generally speaking) character traits.

These difficulties come about when language is continually altered and words redefined. For me the ideology of gender identity is based on the assertion that every single person, not just those who are usually included in the transgender category, possess an abstract, inner gender identity, a feeling of femininity or masculinity or neither or both, which is NOT based on living in their sexed body, but something that exists separately from it and something that should take precedence over anything based on biological sex in social circumstances, in laws and so on.

That most people probably do not possess that abstract inner feeling that would be independent of their sex means that telling people who have not transitioned that they are 'cis' forces them into the congregation of the gender identity church, because it assigns them this concept, whether they wish it or not.

So in that sense it is as if a religion could demand that outsiders call themselves pagans or heathens or infidels because that is what they are called inside the religion. And if someone complains about this, that person is told that all 'cis' means is that the person is not trans.

Which is not true.

The belief that gender stereotypes determine sex and that if you do not match these stereotypes you are the wrong sex and that gender identity is the expression of this.

If you define gender like that, then yes, we all have a gender, but it cannot be different from our sex, because it's externally imposed on us. Like our sex, it's not something that we can change, choose or reject.

This makes 'gender identity' the quality which can be chosen or changed, but it's still related to our sex through stereotyping (gender). So people can have a gender identity which doesn't match their sex/gender, because they don't want to be defined by the gender stereotypes for their sex. But what about those of us who don't agree with the stereotyping but don't believe in gender identity?

“ e.g. you'll often see people using "female" and "feminine" interchangeably, even though one describes the body and one describes (generally speaking) character traits.”

Feminine is used to describe physical appearance (long hair, facial features, elegant hands) and activities (shopping as a leisure pursuit) as much as it’s used to describe character traits.

Forgot to add to my previous post the fact that as it is impossible for anyone outside a person to verify what that person's 'true' gender identity might be, in practice this ideology will mean bringing back very sexist stereotypes about femininity and masculinity, including beliefs in women's submissiveness and passivity and supposed comfort with retrogressive sex roles in the society. So replacing 'sex' with this new 'gender identity' means replacing 'sex' with 'sexist stereotypes', and this will hurt female people.

How about: “the belief that if people claim to feel like a member of the opposite sex, then society should deem them to be a member of the opposite sex”.

I still think it should be up to the organisations which are campaigning for gender identity theory to over-ride the single sex exceptions in the Equality Act to define gender identity theory, rather than those who are not campaigning for that, to define it in the schools guidance,

However I suspect that Stonewall will start massively back tracking from that terminology and push “trans children” as the terminology instead.

How about: “the belief that if people claim to feel like a member of the opposite sex, then society should deem them to be a member of the opposite sex”.

Nailed it.