Non-Binary

[InAMess2023]

Genuinely struggling with this one...

Two members of my family (20 and 21) and one of their partners have all decided they are now non-binary. Family members have made zero effort to change their appearance in any way from their biological sex other than one of them wearing fishnets and mini skirt on very rare occasions yet still being masculine in all other aspects. Partner dresses in very provocative female clothing despite appearing masculine facially etc.

I'd already distance myself from family members due to some aspects of their behaviour which were completely alien to me. Both on the spectrum and claim this means they can never work, despite being able to socialise as normal. And I have ASD myself and work damn hard so was never going to sit well.

However another family member has basically implied that im transphobic because I just don't understand the non binary thing. I'd understand better if it was feeling neither male or female but it's the one day im one and one day im the other that I can't get my head around. The explanation family member gave as well also made no sense... 'well you know sometimes you want to dress and behave like a male or female' - well I sometimes wear tracksuits, drink pints and shout at the football but it's never once made me think I'm secretly a bloke!

I like to think of myself as fairly open minded but im just completely baffled.

one day im one and one day im the other

That would be gender fluid rather than non-binary.

But there's a simple reason why you can't make sense of it. That's because it's nonsense.

It makes sense to them, because to them the word ‘woman’ means a collection of sexist stereotypes one can by into and out of, and the word ‘man’ means a bunch of sexist stereotypes one can buy into and out of.

What they can’t do is actually defend these as definitions or even provide a workable definition of those words.

Which is why it makes no sense to anyone outside of that gender belief system.

It is just the contemporary way of trying to be a bit edgy and experiment with gender streotypes. The problem is the associated demand that everyone must believe one no longer has a sex, along with the imposition of ridiculous pronouns and name calling if you don't comply.

Teenage rebellion and experimentation is now being indefinitely prolonged into the adult years as people become ever more absorbed into feeding and nurturing their own self image and ego identity.

They sound utterly tiresome.

I sometimes wish I had the time for such navel-gazing self-indulgence.

@PurpleChrayne well when you refuse to get a job (the immortal line 'only capitalists get jobs' has been uttered but thankfully not in my vicinity) I guess you have plenty of time!

Poor you. Sounds like two gay men who now feel its bigoted if they don't get to display their kinky fishnets etc in public and family events.

@InAMess2023 I don't understand why, in this day and age, they can't work at all? My children are neurodivergent and all doing something not just navel gazing. I assume though this is being tolerated by family?

@IdealHomeExhibition one of family members is a female but yes the couple very much behave like gay men

@moosmama123 parent of family members (who I'm actually very close to) almost lost their home and now has to rent whereas previously had owned due to a) not being able to pay the mortgage due to so much time off dealing with these two and b) never asking them for a single penny even in the brief months they did work. They both get full PIP allowance as well. No idea why they can't get jobs but when questioned they're 'too anxious' or 'people look at them' (yes when you're 6ft5 in fishnets and a mini skirt that tends to happen)

Not everyone with autism can work, even 'in this day and age'. Some simply don't have the ability. Many more could in theory, but can't in practice.

A friend of mine (with a solid group of friends and active social life) hasn't been able to. The jobs he can get, he can't do - either because of his autism or other health conditions. Jobs he'd be great at he's not been able to get - because of discrimination.

The difference, though, is that he's tried. And having finally accepted paid employment is not going to happen he does a lot of volunteering.

In the case of the OP's relatives it doesn't sound as if the neurodivergence is the problem. It's the general attiude.

@NoBinturongsHereMate sorry I meant in that situation- I know those with severe autism can't. I mean asd- hfa- however you want to refer to it.
And working is more than a 9-5. If your friend has a solid social life there is nothing he can do? It sounds though as if he has other disabilities which means he struggles. I feel for him though as work is good for mental health. I really believe it's helped my children (who both had mental health issues)
I know I am being clumsy and don't meant to be offensive.
We need to do better to support people in work.

@InAMess2023 there is no reason they couldn't give some of their pip or universal credit for rent. I am cross on your behalf.
What do we expect though when nothing has been asked of them? I am sure they would work if the option was to starve or be homeless.

The more you try to understand it, OP, the more you are likely to conclude that it is all nonsense.

Dressing and behaving male or female, ffs. What does that even mean, other than sexist stereotypes?

The only clothes I can think of that are really only for people of one sex are maternity clothes. There's a reason for that. Male and female mean the same thing in humans as in all other animal species.

Just as a heads up, in my experience men deciding they are non binary are usually on a journey towards coming out as a trans woman.

The non binary part is not really the "difference". Most people would qualify as non-binary should they wish anyway. It's the levels of narcissism and desire to exert authoritarian control over the speech and even thoughts of others that marks the difference, especially if you quite sensibly choose not to be coerced into playing along.

Bear in mind plenty of trans people take a dim view of all this too, understandably so as it kind of makes a mockery of dysphoria, as well as being based upon the offensive assumption that people without special identities somehow identify with the regressive stereotypes society foists upon us.

If your friend has a solid social life there is nothing he can do?

I absolutely agree we need to do better to support people in work. There are loads of things he could do. But people won't employ him to do them. Or at least in the long term - he's had plenty of jobs over the years, but they don't last. And as he's got older it's been increasingly difficult to get them in the first place.

He has qualifications coming out of his ears and has spent decades going from interview to interview, trial period to trial period, agency to agency. Unfortunately laws against discrimination don't actually stop it happening.

Sorry - complete sidetrack. It just annoys me that people like the OP's relatives using their ASD as an excuse for general laziness are probably increasing the discriminatory attitudes that prevent my friend getting a job he actually wants.

It's all attention seeking nonsense.

You know how on another thread you insist that you aren't disabled irrespective of the legal definition of "disability"? These relatives are insisting that they aren't men irrespective of the scientific and legal definitions of "man" and "male".

This is what happens when feelings are allowed to trump facts.

Are they middle-class?

Next time I meet someone who declares that the are "non-binary", I'm going to be very happy and inform them that I too am non-binary. I think this is absolutely the strategy to defeat them with - if a bunch of fat boring old mums are all NB as well, it's no longer cool or edgy.

I am Enbypartacus!

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia you know when someone deliberately follows you around MN leaving deliberately goody comments? Yeah that.

Not sure how many times I have to tell you but your comments are not welcome on any thread I choose to make. Never has the classic MN phrase ODFOD been more appropriate.

@Snapperwhipper I'm curious to why you ask but no absolutely not, low income single parent family (some turbulence in childhood but nothing overly horrendous). The partner is a recent care leaver

Good idea @PonyPatter44 🤣

Yep exactly. In my teen goth days many of my friends experimented like this with women's clothing. Because it got attention / was part of the uniform.

It doesn't sound like dysphoria here, it's just being part of a tribe of fellow misfits although at 20/21 they are hardly teenagers.

Just smile and nod, I think they have want to cry transphobe. All part of the angst and othering.

This is why all mums need to claim an NB identity. We'd make it uncool in a year.

And it gives the flying monkeys something to scorn and “educate” people about, stir up trouble and act all superior without any real effort

Yeah that's a great idea.

They/them: I'm non binary.
You: That's nice dear, so am I.
They/them: Oh, cool, what are your pronouns?
You: Sorry?
They/them: What pronouns do you use?
You: Well when I'm talking about myself, I use "I". When I'm talking to you, I use "you".
They/them: But what pronouns should people use when talking about you?
You: Well if they're talking to me they'll say "you", usually.
They/them: I mean if they're talking about you in the third person?
You: Oh goodness, I don't know. I mean, if I'm not there it makes no difference, does it? I won't be able to hear them.
They/them: But do you want them to call you "she" or "they"?
You: Well "she" would make grammatical sense, wouldn't it? Unless they are talking about me and someone else in the plural, or they don't know whether I'm a man or a woman, in which case "they" would be correct.
They/them: So you're not non binary then?
You: Oh yes I am! I reject all the stereotypes, I find them terribly sexist.
They/them: That's not what non binary means.
You: Oh well, what does it mean then?
They/them: It means you don't identify as either a man or a woman.
You: Yes, me neither. I don't identify as anything. I just am what I am.
They/them: But you said that people should call you "she", as if you're a woman.
You: Well yes, that's just grammatically correct, isn't it? That doesn't mean I am identifying as anything. How is someone who talks about me in my absence supposed to know how I identify anyway?
They/them: You tell them what your preferred pronouns are.
You: (chuckling) Oh no, dear, that's not how pronouns work. Pronouns are supposed to simplify grammar by giving us quick ways to refer to people without using their name. They're not supposed to make things more complicated. If you have to ask what pronouns to use, you've rather defeated the point of pronouns.
They/them: So... you're not non binary then?
You: Of course I am! Pink for girls, blue for boys, all that rubbish, I don't identify with any of that! I am an individual!
They/them: That's not what non binary means.
You: So what does it mean then? You're a man or a woman who wants people to use special pronouns? (chuckles) Goodness me, whatever will they/them think of next?

@MargotBamborough that made me chuckle.