More than 70 children aged three and four were sent to Tavistock transgender clinic

[fromorbit]

Even worse than we thought according to the latest findings:

In total, 382 children aged six and under were referred to the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) run by the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust in north London...
A spokesman for the Tavistock said: ‘The GIDS pathway provides psychological assessment, treatment, and support for families, so we are unable to provide figures on those who have undergone physical interventions.
“The outcome of gender identity development in younger pre-pubertal young people is uncertain and so “treatment” is not provided.
“Most often there would be a one-off discussion with the parents/carers to provide support and advice.”

Telegraph article:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/26/tavistock-transgender-clinic-children-aged-three-nhs/

Remember common practices in the Tavistock are probably still going on in Scotland and Wales.

Some of the emails on this

x.com/kevstribulation/status/1662739229078634497?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

If it is a case of a young child not wanting to conform to gendered expectations, it is difficult to see why they would need treatment from a hospital. I am not sure what the referrer would be expecting or hoping for if the child was gender non conforming but happy and developing well in all areas.

I presume that those referred would be children whose mental health is poor and there is a belief that ideas around gender has something to do with the distress. If the distress is impacting on wellbeing and development, accessing assessment and treatment seems sensible.

The key issue is the theory and research that is drawn upon when the HCP produces their clinical formulation. This is where the CASS review and NICE guidelines are needed that provide a clear steer about hypotheses being wide ranging and considering a wide range of potential causal factors for the distress.

Surely any ideas around gender that a 3 year old has will have come from the parents / other care givers? I don't know how that would be solved by sending the child to a clinic where treatment always ends in affirmation and transition?

The Tavistock long ago gave up on watchful waiting or exploring other psychological issues. It's a transition factory, as documented by Hannah Barnes in Time to Think. The evidence presented there is shocking.

Have these 3 and 4 year old been referred since the Cass review? I thought that put a stop to referring such young children?

I think for a couple of decades now, pink and blue has become predominant.

So many girls go through this pink phase which can be influenced and supported by the abundance of princess stuff to buy. Girls continue with long mermaid hair to adulthood, then we have the beauty industry to carry on where the pink knick knacks left off.

It's fashion and now deeply ingrained. I think confused children is the result of these conservative ways of looking / playing. Bring back unisex haired tomboy scruffs.

If we look at what SG said about her own child, Jackie, it sounds as if he was very like @AtalantaRun describes. SG says she herself was fairly relaxed about this, but she did jump to the conclusion that her son might grow up to be gay, which suggests she wasn't taking it entirely in her stride. To be fair, depending on where you live, the circles you move in, and what your family is like, a gender nonconforming boy might well attract a lot of comment, some of it very unpleasant, so I think it would be difficult to remain completely relaxed about it. Anyway, the real kicker in that family, by SG's account anyway, is that her now ex-husband was not happy about Jackie playing with dolls and dressing up. He had expected his son to be interested in sport and rough and tumble - the phrase 'real boy' is coming to mind here - and so Jackie must have been a disappointment. I really don't think it can be overstated how devastating that can be for a child, to know that something absolutely fundamental about yourself is somehow wrong and repulsive to your own parent.

If this had happened in my family, I hope I would have had the strength of character to put my child first. Unfortunately, SG didn't. She and her husband ended up at marriage guidance because there were so many arguments about Jackie and she says the therapist said 'Just take the dolls away' so she did. This pleased Mr G but had a catastrophic effect on Jackie, whose mental health all through school appears to have been on on the floor. It took SG's mother to convince her that Jackie should be allowed to have a doll again, but (incredibly to most, I would hope) SG by this time had decided that Jackie wanting a doll was not just a small child wanting a doll - it had to be a sign that there was something wrong.

Jackie had by this time very understandably started saying he wasn't a boy, he was a girl. He was a tiny child constantly being told 'Put that down, you're not a girl!' In his mind, of course he was going to conclude that the only way to get what he wanted was to be a girl. SG was somehow unable to see this. She took Jackie literally and did 'research', i.e. looked things up, and concluded, yes indeed, a child could be born in the wrong body, and now there were medical treatments that could correct this unfortunate birth defect. She has no training in medicine or any other health care discipline. She has no science or psychology degree as far as I'm aware. She was working as an IT manager at the Citizens' Advice Bureau. She wasn't qualified to interpret or assess the research. She took from it what she wanted to find, and acted on what she had decided would be best for Jackie, which at the time was in total contradiction to the watchful waiting approach GIDS and most gender specialists around the world would have advocated.

So poor young Jackie was socially transitioned at an early age, taken to the US for puberty blockers at about 11 or 12, and whisked off to Thailand so he could have sexual reassignment surgery, i.e. castration, on his 16th birthday. How she wasn't prosecuted for that is beyond my comprehension. A parent taking a daughter abroad for FGM would be prosecuted (I hope). How is this different?

And along the way she got involved with a tiny parent support group called Mermaids, and the rest is history.

This is the consequence of the inherent contradiction between gender dysphoria defined as a medical issue requiring diagnosis being rejected by trans activists, but a medical pathway being advocated by those same activitists as the solution to "transness". And that contradiction not being confronted (generally speaking) within the NHS.

So you end up with activists referring to a medical institution.

The quote in the times has it She said part of the problem with GIDS had been that activist groups, rather than doctors only, were referring children. “There should only be a medical pathway for referrals in future.”

The only way it's slightly conceivable to me, would be if a child was in extreme distress about their physical body in some way - which at that age would be vanishingly rare, and a sign of something very serious going on (eg abuse)

Anything else? Boy prefers stuffies to cars, Girl into football and wanting short hair, why on earth wouldn't the GP say 'totally normal, nothing medical going on here at all' and educate the parents rather than refer?

It is utterly heartbreaking. Those poor children.

@ResisterRex is there a thread reader non twixter users can access?

Hating long hair is just a symptom of hating long hair. I remember getting it brushed was so painful. Not a symptom of wanting to be a boy. Although I can imagine a child might say that to get their own way. A child who would have no idea what they might be venturing into.

There’s some information at the start of Time to Think where Barnes discusses the views of others in the Portman about the approach being taken in the (then new) children’s gender unit and how it was totally at odds with the systemic and psychoanalytic approach advocated within the trust. And also discussion of how it was felt that the gender clinic should sit within wider CAMHS and particularly the teams dealing with anorexia and body dysmorphia.

I am completely unconvinced that the answer to ‘gender distress’ ever lies in body modification. Especially not where the distressed individual is a child.

I do have some sympathy for the parents of older children (teens really) who start claiming trans identities. I can see how some of those parents end up affirming because the teen is threatening suicide or self harm unless they get what they want (and this has usually come from social pressure, especially in online communities).

But with such young children it can only be coming from the parents and their interpretation of normal child behaviour. I can’t believe there are any three year-olds saying they are trans or that they are ‘trapped in the wrong body’. They are not exposed to social media and pressure from peer groups like older children are. They can’t possibly know or understand what ‘transgender’ means so these cases really must simply be small children doing entirely normal things (boys wearing Disney dresses, girls enjoying Lego etc) and this being interpreted by the parents as a sign of a trans identity. Either because the parents are homophobic/completely entrenched in gender stereotypes, or because they see themselves as superwoke, already believe in trans ideology and absolutely can’t wait to tell everyone their child is Special and Stunning and Brave.

To be clear, I don’t think it’s right to affirm teenagers’ trans identities either, but just saying I can see how it happens when parents are frightened that their child will hurt themselves.

This document is useful in understanding why HCPs might have referred children to GIDS. It details what GIDS were commissioned to provide.

www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/gender-development-service-children-adolescents.pdf

The document is written for an NHS England audience and framed by NHS outcomes etc. and provides details of the outcomes / aims in line with those expected from all NHS services.

E.g. "Experiencing GD can be associated with significant social and emotional difficulties and distress. The service will seek to reduce the negative effects on a client’s general development and build their resilience across a range of domains, including family and peer relationships, self-esteem, self-image and education, thereby improving quality of life".

I expect few posters on this thread would object to the above if this was provided to children in distress

I doubt anyone would object to those things, if that's what the service actually provided. Is there any evidence that this is what referred children actually receive though?

That's the issue.

What is in the document reads differently from what is on the Tavi website and what practitioners advocating for the service promote.

This is the issue. GIDS as it was (and presumably will until closure) was functioning in a different manner to other NHS services. Cow towing to activists and operating from an ideological position. They were/are adopting the narrative of trans identities not being a disorder or even a condition and that the problems are created by societies non acceptance rather than pathology.

I think most of us would agree that a trans identity in itself isn't a disorder or condition. People can hold beliefs about themselves and can be gender conforming and mentally healthy. It's hard to think of a reason such people would need treatment of any kind. However, when people want to change their physical features and put unnatural, prescription only chemicals into their body, then this has to be considered an illness or condition to warrant treatment.

When it comes to children being distressed, that warrants treatment and intervention too. Presumably to be referred to the Tavi, they require more that being able to make gender non conforming choices - medical intervention isn't needed for this!

@IcakethereforeIam I can't see it via another route but have looked. Still seeing if I can find it for you

I've mentioned it before but it's worth pointing out again occasionally its the schools and nurseries pushing agenda I've had to push back firmly against my son being called trans he isn't he is a boy with special needs with long hair who likes pink he is firm in his stance he is a boy however he struggled massively with the whole boy/girl thing they would often say girls line up to go outside ds wanted to go outside so he would line up they took it as he thought he was a girl (🙄) he didn't understand the difference between boys and girls he was at least six before he worked out mum didn't have a penis because of his learning difficulties retaining information is troublesome for him

School wanted to refer him for counselling I said no they wanted me to self refer to family front door (social worker early access) I finally had to assure them I was keeping an eye on the situation and I would self refer if necessary apparently they did contact social services to get advice who bluntly told them they are dealing with abused children not confused children (and rang me making sure I didn't need to self refer)

I find myself being devil's advocate here, which surprises me. A child this young who is very distressed about any suggestion that they are their sex, who repeatedly says they're the opposite sex, that is also disruptive, unhappy, maybe not eating, starting to refuse school etc... wouldn't most of us want expert help to navigate that? Its really unusual at that age, even at modern rates of referral. If our GP or a charity supported by many say that this is in fact a situation that can be helped, that SHOULD be helped by a national centre of expertise, wouldn't we be failing our child if we didn't accept that referral?

There's a lot of parts of MN where if a specialist NHS clinic refused to prescribe drugs considered useful on the Internet and by commercial medicine, all the threads would be about pushing for more prescriptions and faster intervention. If our child were actively suicidal we might find 'watch and wait' by experts absolutely enraging.

But you can’t be the wrong sex. However strongly you feel that you don’t like pink.

Regarding referrals. Some parents will change surgeries and tracks are temporarily lost whilst records are re-aligned. It can make it difficult for HCPs to know where you are, hence reliance on what parents tell you.

@PermanentTemporary I think the issue is that, yes, the parents of a child who is unhappy, disruptive, refusing school, not eating should expect expert help to navigate this. It should be offered immediately, involve multiple depts (social services), family counselling - with intervention if it is clear there is an issue with the parents.

My personal experience (older child entering puberty) however, was to refer to the Tavistock and wait 6 years until she graduated into the adult wait list. In the interim, absolutely NO help was offered for ASD, self harming, anxiety or depression NOR an assessment for ADHD despite her begging for one for 5 years (eventually obtained privately once she turned 18). As soon as the phrase ‘I am trans’ is spoken and documented on records, any and all treatment is kicked down the lane as being the Tavi’s remit. The GP won’t touch it, neither will SocServs (we were investigated 3 times over 4 years), or CAMHS.

It strikes me that many of these under 8’s, despite referral and inclusion in the statistics, may not actually have been seen much before puberty if at all… 5 years on a waitlist with affirming (or damaging) parents only means the child will become more entrenched in the belief they are trans. The same wait period with non-affirming parents would lead to similar entrenchment when parents are demonised by all the above services for so much as questioning the issue.

A child this young who is very distressed about any suggestion that they are their sex, who repeatedly says they're the opposite sex, that is also disruptive, unhappy, maybe not eating, starting to refuse school etc... wouldn't most of us want expert help to navigate that?

Yes, a child like this needs some mental health support. This is likely to be due to trauma or abuse, or possibly because of undiagnosed autism or some other undiagnosed condition. It could also be because the parents have very strict rules about gender stereotyping and forcing the child to comply. What is causing them to want to be or to think they are the opposite sex? It's definitely not being "born in the wrong body" but the root cause should be found.

The answer is not a so-called gender clinic for children which just affirms the child in their transsexual identity.

I guess what's difficult to know is how often the distress is caused by the child being told they shouldn't like the things they like, as per the story of SG and Jackie where the child was constantly told no boys don't play with that etc. Helen Joyce talks about gender dysphoria in some cases perhaps being created by parents responses to gnc behaviours. I think my son would have been distressed if we'd got annoyed, said he couldn't have the things he liked because they're for girls, tried to redirect his interests etc.

Absolutely. There were posts early on which talked about wondering why parents did go ahead with referrals to the GIDS when a child is saying they are the opposite sex, which is obviously not true, and suggesting that there are simple answers, the 'thats nice dear' approach. The fact is that there will indeed be loads of associated issues and distress over a long period, and Cass indeed talks about the disastrous shadowing effect of the word 'gender' in preventing other issues being considered, particularly at a time when CAMHS funding had been shredded. You only have to read a bit about SG and her child to see that the emotional situation must have been extreme over a period of years, or read the spiralling number of threads about children identifying as trans.

I know a four year old who went to the Scottish equivalent and, to be fair to the NHS, we're told the child was too young to understand gender beyond sexist ideas and recommended role play that was more general. So playing superheroes rather than the specific male Marvel ones the kid liked, for example, to essentially take sex out of being a superhero.

Parents obviously ignored advice and went straight to Mermaids instead.

I've known two small children transitioned and neither was distressed before they were faced with the choice of what to be. It was asking them repeatedly if they want to be a boy or girl that started the distress. It's way too big a decision for a small child but the distress was assumed to be dysphoria. One child was v close to my child and kept crying about being worried about getting it wrong, upsetting people, but not about changing sex specifically.

That's really interesting @MyEyesMyThighs and pretty horrible.