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Original poster

Woman jailed after posing as man and duping partner into sex

56 replies

TERFisTHEnewTREND · 21/12/2023 00:00

Guardian link: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/20/woman-jailed-posing-as-man-cambridge-crown-court

A woman has been sentenced to 10 and a half years in jail for sexual assault after pretending to be a man to dupe a woman into sex using a blindfold, a sex toy and a “wholly fake persona"

He [the judge] added: “To engage with others in those fantasy lives is also not inherently wrong, not criminal, unless or until you start to use that fantasy life to deceive another person in the real world. Your deception, skilfully carried out and maliciously maintained, was acted out in the real world with appalling consequences.”

OP posts:
Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 21/12/2023 00:01

The double standard is alive and well and living in the legal system.

Original poster
TERFisTHEnewTREND · 21/12/2023 00:02

Sorry, posted too soon! All the text in my post is direct from The Guardian.

Obviously, there's a lot to unpack with the this case. It's quite unbelievable really. However, the judge's remark about involving others in one's fantasy are interesting. I agree with the judge here; nobody should have to partake in someone else's fantasy.

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IwantToRetire · 21/12/2023 01:35

This sounds very similar to this case https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/gayle-newland-jailed-for-tricking-female-friend-into-sex - I am sure there was a thread on here about it.

Although Garle Newland wasn't as far as I know someone who had practiced this deception more than once. Also wasn't clear whether it was about some inability to think she was lesbian.

This current case seems to be a bit different.

But yes the parallel to tricking someone into engaging in your fantasy is why many in the trans community didn't want sex by deception to be a crime.

Woman who posed as man to dupe friend into sex is jailed after retrial

Gayle Newland, 27, who was jailed for three counts of sexual assault by penetration, also admitted defrauding her employer

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/gayle-newland-jailed-for-tricking-female-friend-into-sex

TaytoCheeseandOnion · 21/12/2023 06:09

Fuck me. Just read a bit of the Alex Sharp thread. It is too early to be this angry.

eurochick · 21/12/2023 06:27

The sentence seems completely disproportionate. (Male) rapists get less.

Soontobe60 · 21/12/2023 06:46

eurochick · 21/12/2023 06:27

The sentence seems completely disproportionate. (Male) rapists get less.

She wasn’t charged with rape, so it’s disingenuous to compare the two.

Koalatreats · 21/12/2023 07:10

This extract from the judge is interesting,
‘This case is at its heart about lies, deceit and procuring sexual experiences by grossly misleading another person.’

How many people lie, cheat and mislead to procure sexual experiences? Pretending they are single for example. Or faking their situation? Or cheating on their spouse putting them at risk of STDs and being unable to truly consent.

eurochick · 21/12/2023 07:19

I know she wasn't charged with rape but she did penetrate her victims with a dildo so it is absolutely not disingenuous to compare the two b

Parisj · 21/12/2023 07:20

This verdict surely raises a lot of questions about trans identifying males and females who join dating sites on the basis of their gender identity not their sex. Obviously when to disclose trans status, if not obvious, has always been a concern trans people have had to consider. Trans men are men and trans women are women statements and the cultural shift widely achieved by trans activists has presumably meant more and more trans people not disclosing or disclosing later. Is this now a deception in law? And at what stage? I am sure there will be additional awful details of this case, but what is the difference between a woman pretending to be a man and a self-identifying trans man in law?

Sugarfree23 · 21/12/2023 07:36

I think the difference is in honesty.
This woman didn't identify as a transman.

She said she was a man.

The victim didn't she her naked, wasn't allowed to feel the crotch area. Two years she allowed her access to her kids thinking she was a straight man with a military background.

I have no doubt they'll be an appeal for reduced sentence but it stands to reason that if a woman pretending to be a man gets a hefty sentence it should also be the case the other way around.

A man pretending to be female and not being honest should be given a heavy sentence

popebishop · 21/12/2023 09:01

This woman didn't identify as a transman.
She said she was a man.

Genuinely, I am struggling to understand the difference. The "right side of history" people say there is no difference. If you say you are a man, you literally - literally - are a man. If you don't think so, you are a bigot.

popebishop · 21/12/2023 09:33

And bringing gender dysphoria into it is transphobic, isn't it? Having dysphoria as a requirement to be trans is gatekeeping and medicalising the trans experience.

Original poster
TERFisTHEnewTREND · 21/12/2023 10:17

My issue with this case is that if this woman was "living" as a man (as she seemed to be), then surely by Stonewall's own policy of "acceptance without exception" "people are who they say they are", she is one?

She could have a very interesting appeal here. I feel awful for the victim though of course.

OP posts:
DeanElderberry · 21/12/2023 10:37

Interesting ruling. The case law on what trans identifying people can expect from others is being written as we watch. The outworkings are going to take a long long time to work through.

Iamtheelephantintheroom · 21/12/2023 10:39

Okay, I'm going to hell and will be piled on for victim blaming, but how the hell did the victim not realise? Blade does not have passing privilege. They have a female face.

MerkinBunting · 21/12/2023 10:43

Both STonewall and LGBT Foundation have campaigned to get rid of the 'sex/rape by deception' law. Both have since deleted the evidence, I couldn't find the Stonewall page, but the LGBT Foundation one is archived below:

LGBT Foundation on 'sex by deception' (page now deleted)

'These convictions were made based on Crown Prosecution Service guidance which doesn’t recognize that it may not feasible for trans people to be living ‘full time’ in their gender and that trans bodies will vary. In Kyran Lee’s case, it seems that his gender identity as a trans man was not even considered in the judge’s ruling. This is deeply troubling, and leaves the potential for further criminalisation of trans people. Trans bodies are varied and the assumption that all men have penises and all women have vaginas is not only transphobic, but legally inaccurate. These convictions set a concerning legal precedent, that trans bodies can be considered, fraudulent, illegitimate and not ‘real’. We are consulting with the Government Equalities Office about what can be done to challenge the law.'

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20230306121703/lgbt.foundation/news/sex-by-deception---statement-from-lgbt-foundation/32" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20230306121703/lgbt.foundation/news/sex-by-deception---statement-from-lgbt-foundation/32

Julie Bindel:

https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/july-2021/when-is-a-rape-not-a-rape/

Alex Sharpe talking about a rape-by-deception case where a blindfold was involved:

'We might think of the blindfold as a metaphor for all of the so-called ‘gender fraud’ cases. Thus the blindfold might stand for blind in(justice) meted out and perhaps, and as importantly, for disavowal of complainant sexual agency. Ultimately, when it comes to desire-led ‘gender fraud’ cases we should perhaps as judges, jurors and the wider community, take off our blindfolds and suspend, not our disbelief, but our quite fantastical beliefs, especially those informed by a heteronormative and cisnormative world view. '

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/09/theres-more-meets-eye-case-gayle-newland

Woman's Place UK:

https://womansplaceuk.org/2023/05/24/wpuk-evidence-to-the-cps/

'Sex by deception' - Statement from LGBT Foundation

​This week Kyran Lee, a 25 year old trans man, received a two year suspended sentence after being convicted in 2014 of one count of sexual assault by penetration on the basis of obtaining ‘sex through deception.’ This and similar cases could be a cause...

https://web.archive.org/web/20230306121703/https://lgbt.foundation/news/sex-by-deception---statement-from-lgbt-foundation/32

Original poster
TERFisTHEnewTREND · 21/12/2023 10:50

Iamtheelephantintheroom · 21/12/2023 10:39

Okay, I'm going to hell and will be piled on for victim blaming, but how the hell did the victim not realise? Blade does not have passing privilege. They have a female face.

As awful as it must have been for the victim, I have to agree with this point generally. However, we don't know anything about the victim, she could have been partially sighted etc?

OP posts:
MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 21/12/2023 10:54

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 21/12/2023 00:01

The double standard is alive and well and living in the legal system.

In terms of how men and women offenders are treated in this specific scenario, UK law has been pretty consistent.

However, I agree that there is a major discrepancy between the sentencing of this crime versus 'normal' rape (rape being the obvious equivalent, although women can not be charged with this under UK law). Sentencing guidelines for rape without aggravating factors are 4-9 years, with many sentences at the lower end.

ImFloatingInAMostPeculiarWay · 21/12/2023 10:56

Soontobe60 · 21/12/2023 06:46

She wasn’t charged with rape, so it’s disingenuous to compare the two.

Show quote history

I disagree that it is disingenuous to compare the two.

As pp have said the woman in the case consented to sex with a man, she did not consent to sex with a woman.

Chariothorses · 21/12/2023 11:01

Maureen O' hara has written about the CPS’ proposed legal guidance on sexual offences involving ‘deception as to gender’, which promote the demands of trans lobby groups and mistate the law. Page 20 on (though all is of interest) of this report:

https://policyexchange.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/The-Crown-Prosecution-Services-approach-to-transgenderism.pdf

https://policyexchange.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/The-Crown-Prosecution-Services-approach-to-transgenderism.pdf

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 21/12/2023 11:11

ImFloatingInAMostPeculiarWay · 21/12/2023 10:56

I disagree that it is disingenuous to compare the two.

As pp have said the woman in the case consented to sex with a man, she did not consent to sex with a woman.

Show quote history

IIRC, male offenders have been charged with rape in deception scenarios, the rationale being that you cannot give informed consent to sexual intercourse if you are deceived about your partner's sex.

Women offenders cannot be charged with rape because, under UK law, rape can only be committed with a penis, so alternative charges have to be used.

Original poster
TERFisTHEnewTREND · 21/12/2023 11:24

Personally, I do feel that the victim was raped here. She didn't consent to penetration from a woman.

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