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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Shocked by sexual offences lecture - sex by deception and 'bigoted' women.

36 replies

WeeBisom · 06/11/2018 16:20

I just got back from a criminal lecture in sexual offences and I'm a bit stunned, so I have to rant a bit. The lecture started off well by discussing radical feminist views about consent- Dworkin and MacKinnon were referenced. The main theme was stressing that even in non-criminal sexual encounters women's sexual autonomy is often threatened - women don't yet have full sexual freedom. So far so good.

We then to get to sexual deception - cases where women are tricked into sex. We cover, in particular, the McNally case. In brief, McNally was a female who pretended to be male. She created a male persona and tricked a female friend into sex. The friend insisted that she believed she was having heterosexual sex with a boyfriend - she had no idea she was having sex with the female McNally. McNally was convicted of sex by deception.

After hearing a whole hour about how women's sexual autonomy is paramount, and a fundamental right that needs to be protected along comes the theories of Prof. Alex Sharpe (who has been mentioned here previously.) Alex thinks that the McNally case is a huge injustice because McNally was jailed despite having a 'male gender identity'. McNally wasn't 'posing' or 'pretending' to be a boy - she really was a male. The law does a great injustice to trans people by assuming that their gender identity isn't authentic - by assuming that McNally really was just committing identity fraud. McNally, the argument goes, was as male as any 'cis' male and so his identity should have been respected as genuine.

Immediately, two thoughts come to mind. Firstly, there's no evidence that McNally was really transgender, in the sense that she would be protected by the equality act. McNally completely presents as a woman, and has never denied she is a woman, and it's doubtful whether she really ever truly believed in the 'Kai' persona. So it's disturbing that Sharpe is calling McNally 'transgender'. Secondly, let's suppose that McNally really did have a genuine male gender identity - she really was a man, just in a 'differently configured body'. How is the law supposed to tell when someone is 'genuinely' a male on the inside, and when someone is just a fraudster? More importantly, how are sexual partners supposed to know this?

The lecturer told us more about Sharpe's 'theories' and I have to say that I began to get seriously angry. Sharpe thinks that there is 'too much emphasis' on sexual autonomy. Trans identities, and trans validation, is more important than people's rights to sexual freedom. When compared to this nuanced, fantastic feminist analysis this just seemed...well...anti-feminist. Sexual autonomy is overrated. Women just have too much of a say when it comes to sex!

Sharpe also thinks that if a victim is upset by being "deceived' then the law should take no heed of their 'bigoted' feelings. They only feel disgust, apparently, because they are transphobic. If they weren't transphobic they wouldn't be at all bothered by the "deception". Their disgust, in fact, should be treated as irrational - nothing to be taken seriously, and certainly nothing that should be considered in a court case. By this point I was raging.

Oh and to top it off, I asked the lecturer what we should think about a case where a lesbian, who by virtue of her sexual orientation desires to have sex with female bodied people, unwittingly consents to sex with a male bodied person who has a 'female gender identity'. I pointed out that in this case, both individuals have marginalised identities. The lecturer said that in this case the trans individual's identity is marginalised if we say the sex act was fraud. Apparently the lesbian's identity is not marginalised by having sex with a 'trans woman'. WTF. Oh, and this wasn't clarified, but presumably the lesbian who was upset about this was being 'irrational' and a transphobic bigot.

It's 2018 and this is what is being taught in criminal lectures.

OP posts:
FFSFFSFFS · 06/11/2018 16:26

Those bigoted lesbians.

I'm horrified.

If you identify as having the balls id take it further and complain. Taking the homophobic point.

What discipline?

GenderApostate · 06/11/2018 16:26

Alex Sharpe is really, really dangerous. The fact that they are teaching safeguarding Law, amonst other things, to their students whilst at the same time pushing this agenda, is horrifying.

1MillionSelfiesTakenByMyKids · 06/11/2018 16:31

Because a straigjt mab who was tricked into sex with a male bodied petaon presenting as female would presumably be A-OK with that. Right. Hmm

1MillionSelfiesTakenByMyKids · 06/11/2018 16:32

Omg.
^^ straight man
^^ male bodied person

WeeBisom · 06/11/2018 16:34

I'd like to point out that I wasn't taught by Alex Sharpe - my lecturer was just conveying Sharpe's views. But I found them pretty appalling to be honest and they were just presented with very little push back aside from 'this is a bit controversial.' The lecturer also emphasised that it wasn't their personal theory, and answered the question how Sharpe might answer it. It's still distressing though.

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FloraFox · 06/11/2018 16:42

I'm not familiar with Alex Sharpe but I don't think much of his views. Fairly typical though of a male view of female sexuality as being an object to be penetrated rather than a person with a fully realised sexuality.

I'm no fan of porn or porn performers generally however a few years ago when lesbian porn performer Lily Cade was being attacked by trans activists for saying she would not perform in porn with a male person regardless of their identity she argued about this point and said she has no interest in participating in an orgasm of a male person / person with a penis.

Consent seems to be such a low standard for participation in sexual activity - it's shocking for a supposedly feminist analysis to say that women's sexual autonomy is overrated.

Manderleyagain · 06/11/2018 16:42

The lecturer has to cover it if that's an argument being put forward in the discipline. Gordon Bennet I didn't know. Is this where we have got to in our understandings of rape. Will it be covered in a seminar where it will be possible to actually discuss this with tutor and students?

One answer is to qualify, go into research yourself and put forward counter arguments (the long game). Is this criminology?

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 06/11/2018 16:44

There's a criminology lecturer who regularly trots out nonsense if it shores up his sexist views.
It shouldn't be like this.
It's not a subjective philosophical debate.
The law is very clear.

FreshlyBakedRolls · 06/11/2018 16:46

"Do people have a legitimate expectation to know certain kinds of information prior to intimacy?"

Alex Sharpe,

*Profs. pref. pronoun unknown.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 06/11/2018 16:46

www.scottishlegal.com/article/dr-stuart-waiton-civil-rape-cases this numpty.
Such a curate's egg - he gets students thinking about Trans issues mote critically but... comes out with mince

AspieAndProud · 06/11/2018 16:50

I think the OP was spot on calling this a ‘criminal lecture’

AnchorMum · 06/11/2018 16:51

For goodness sake. How much more of this shit do women have to put up with in the guise of academia.

Fallingirl · 06/11/2018 16:53

Lisa Muggeridge wrote this excellent piece on the McNally case:

idgeofreason.wordpress.com/2015/11/13/janefae-demonstrates-how-rape-apologism-can-be-presented-as-feminism/

MandalaYogaTapestry · 06/11/2018 16:56

For God's sake. Suppose a man who discovered that his female girlfriend is actually male and that all this time he has been fucking another man who represents like a woman. What are the chances that this man will be cool with it? Would Sharpe call this man bigoted?

We need to be giving examples which concern men, not women or lesbians. Those might be more convincing.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 06/11/2018 16:57

The lesson will simply become that people will make bloody sure of the biology of the person they are dating before they have sex. It isn't going to create this magical world where pansexuality gambols in fields full of rainbows and bodies don't matter any more. It will just teach society that a) there are people who will try and commit sexual fraud and b) they will then try to make it your fault, and c) for God's sake don't get involved with one.

WeeBisom · 06/11/2018 17:06

The one good thing was before the discussion of Sharpe, we also heard the theories of Johnathan Herring. Herring thinks it is woeful that property is protected more often in the law than sexual autonomy, and he thinks that women have the absolute right to have pre-conditions to sex that are pre-requisites for consent (for instance, only having sex in a certain position, or with certain kinds of people.) He thinks breaches of sexual contracts by fraud or deception are not taken seriously enough in law, and he wants to see sexual autonomy getting the highest priority.

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CarefullyDrawnMap · 06/11/2018 17:08

Her minimising the deception is ridiculous - any deception surely negates the person's ability to consent? What about those women who are bringing a case against the police who were undercover and who they had long term relationships with without knowing who they really were. The deception doesn't sound inconsequential to them, even though they were the sex they thought they were. I imagine if it had been men being deceived in the same way by women, they'd have felt violated too. Did she mention anything about that case? Is it relevant? It seems relevant to me if she's negating the effect of deception, even though it's obviously not exactly the same.

CarefullyDrawnMap · 06/11/2018 17:08

Sorry, x posted with you

WeeBisom · 06/11/2018 17:15

Sharpe thinks that some kinds of deception is clearly rape (like the undercover cop case). However, deception involving sex identity is not rape because 1) people may have 'genuine trans identities'. In this case they aren't committing a deception at all, and it's transphobic to think so. They really are the sex they claim to be, so no fraud has gone on. Thus no crime. 2) furthermore, cases involving sex identity are not rape because the trans person is highly marginalised and vulnerable.In such cases, sexual freedom has to take a back seat to this person's discriminated against identity. The idea seems to be that the undercover cop is in a position of power and authority. McNally, for example, was a member of a marginalised community and being found guilty of rape made her even more marginalised. In the McNally case, the victim's sexual autonomy was 'unjustly' prioritised when what should happen in cases like this is the trans' person's right to identity and not be discriminated against should be prioritised. So what Sharpe is arguing is that sex by deception just doesn't apply in the case of gender/sex fraud, but can occur elsewhere.

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merrymouse · 06/11/2018 17:30

Wasn't there a lot more to the deception in the McNally case - not just about about whether McNally was male but about the whole 'Kai' persona?

Presumably it would still have been deception if MacNally was in fact a man, but the victim thought they were having sex with somebody called 'Kai'?

CarefullyDrawnMap · 06/11/2018 17:32

Blimey. That's really interesting and I'm trying to get my head around it.
I think sexual autonomy should take precedence and I'd think anyone who's experienced an invasive, unwanted sex attack of any kind would think the same. A bit like the doctor's 'first do no harm' approach. But I don't know how it could possibly be measured whether an injury to identity is worse than an injury (psychological as well as physical) from a sex attack.

I'd also take issue with the aspect that being found guilty of rape makes the perpetrator more marginalised. They all roll out this thing about convictions of or allegations of rape 'ruining the lives' of the accused, but I think the victims are also marginalised, discriminated against, victimised and so on, more than is acknowledged in such conversations.
I disagree with Sharpe. I don't think it can just be cordoned off like that as an offence.

LangCleg · 06/11/2018 18:03

If, after a long series of deceptions and obfuscations during which you have your victim barely knowing whether they are coming or going, and then you persuade them to wear a blindfold, tell them you are penetrating them with your penis (to which they consent) but are really penetrating them with an object (to which they did not consent), what the fuck difference does your gender identity make?

CarefullyDrawnMap · 06/11/2018 18:46

Well, quite.

R0wantrees · 06/11/2018 19:08

for further insight: twitter.com/AlexSharpe64

FFSFFSFFS · 06/11/2018 19:14

Many point out that the exclusion of trans women from women’s spaces has its roots in the exclusion of women of colour and lesbians from women’s spaces.

sorry - going off topic - but that's a tweet from someone Alex Sharpe (sorry - just don't have the time to google how they would like to dictate my language when I refer to Alex Sharpe) follows on twitter.

Correct me if I'm wrong - but I'm pretty sure that the exclusion of transwomen from womens spaces has its roots in excluding the bepenised??

twitter.com/JakePyne/status/1059848585464832000

this person has a PHD though so must be true.

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