School Guidance out Tomorrow

[Igneococcus]

I don't have time to read this fully right now, but it sounds messy:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/789e1fd3-4a82-4b71-a0bf-e165b5f410b1?shareToken=054150e42690555c0ffe751a53776e92

Yes. This point is generally unacknowledged by those who attempt to wedge it into a debate. If a child is at risk and this is known by staff, the very first time they will know about it will NOT be when a child starts discussing gender.

Yet, it keeps being brought up. Every. single. time.

@noblegiraffe
It's my reading that 'Gender questioning children' includes children who have already transitioned at school as under 18s cannot change their legal sex. So they'd be subject to the same rules.

I know the Cass review says that social transition is not a neutral act, however it also says that it must be recognised that 'doing nothing' also cannot be considered a neutral act.

We're in a position where there are kids in schools who already have been socially transitioned, whether you agree with that or not. If the guidance is now that social transitioning should only occur in exceptional circumstances, it is highly likely that many of those would fall into the categories of SEN or pressure re sexuality, or parental lack of knowledge/consent who in future would warrant a more cautious approach. The question is: do schools now 'detransition' them? I can see there are some on this thread who would be happy to see their provisions rolled back BUT, if, as the Cass review says that both transitioning and doing nothing are not neutral acts, it seems highly likely that removing use of names and pronouns should also not be seen as a neutral act and could in fact be very distressing and approached with caution.

Schools are not medical professionals and this situation should never have been allowed to develop to the extent that it has. But here we are, and schools need proper advice that covers all current scenarios.

Re: teachers being pressured not to use preferred pronouns where a child has made a disclosure/request that has not yet been signed off - this is going to be a difficult one.

Even fairly hardened GC people would find it difficult to ignore a simple request to use a different name or pronouns. Generally people want to be kind and not doing so feels rude. Doing so deliberately would definitely be labelled as transphobic by many. Teachers aren't, as a rule, in the job to make children upset, or to be bigoted. Telling them that they have to ignore the request would, I think, require far more of an explanation than 'it's the new Tory guidance', which, tbh, makes it more likely to sound like it has come from a place of bigotry.

Children are registered at school with their given name. So children could then ask teachers to call them ‘The Dark Destroyer’ or ‘Tiddles the Jinky Cat’.

The teachers are there to teach. If they are concerned about the child’s wellbeing, there are set procedures to do this.

This was my understanding. All schools will have to follow the guidelines and at least parents can use them if required - if there is anyone trying to override due to own agenda.

Sorry, nrtff, don't know if someone else may have posted this. Victoria Smith in Unherd

https://unherd.com/thepost/the-governments-school-trans-guidance-is-not-extremist/

The comments by 54321 (hello 👋 if you're on here) are really good too.

Schools don’t have to follow the guidelines. That’s what non-statutory means.

That's a valid point @noblegiraffe However had some schools been a bit more circumspect and engaged their critical thinking, posters wouldn't be reporting the experiences of their daughter forced to undress in a changing room alongside a teenage boy. She avoids that distressing experience by wearing her PE kit under her uniform.

I do hope that some schools will reflect on why they allowed a motley crew of transactivists and lobby groups to influence pastoral care, safeguarding and the school curriculum despite zero qualifications in education. I've no doubt that this will be tough for some schools to navigate with certain . While those who held the line of safeguarding and the rights of girls will find it much easier.

I’m not talking about kids who in the future make a request to be called a different name, I’m talking about the ones already called a different name.

Will the expectation be that the register (which uses preferred not legal name) is changed back, that the front of their exercise book is scribbled out, that their pronouns revert?

True - but if you don't follow guidance that's legal and centres the safety of children, a school had better have a very good reason. Ofsted have already said that schools transitioning children in secret is a safeguarding matter

I do hope that some schools will reflect on why they allowed a motley crew of transactivists and lobby groups to influence pastoral care, safeguarding and the school curriculum despite zero qualifications in education.

And the answer to that is because no one else bothered. Look at this govt guidance coming out now for the first time. How late in the day is this? And it's non-statutory and only out for consultation so still not finalised.

People criticise schools for going along with Stonewall, but they used to have a good reputation. Why would schools suspect that they didn't know what they were talking about when they were confidently (and incorrectly) stating the law? The DfE themselves referred schools to Stonewall resources for teaching PSHE around gender identity.

Don't blame schools for this mess.

Havent RTFT but caught the gist from the news. Why is it always the default position of some trans charities that parents are malign influences in their children’s lives who can’t be trusted with their welfare or to know them best? If we’re not the people with the biggest vested interest in our kids happiness then who is? People on Twitter? Drives me mad.

"Don't blame schools for this mess"

Apologies @noblegiraffe - I fully accept that the DfE have enabled & funded all this - with even Ofsted being Stonewall champions until embarrassing leaks emerged about inappropriate pressure. And I've worked with Stonewall anti bullying materials in schools a while back. and know how good they used to be.

But I do know of a significant number of schools who have successfully held this at bay. Where confident leaders have focused on their core aims and not allowed activist teachers to set the this running to the detriment of children. So I think it's reasonable (just as other institutions have had to do) for schools to reflect on how and why this happened in their institution.

There really needs to be a national enquiry into how we ended up here - but we're not at that stage yet.

Nobelgiraffe *(apologies, I can't remember whether you are a teacher or teaching union person) why is it that Ofsted never seem to go near PHSE observed lessons and lesson plans and pronouns etc when doing school inspections?

It seems bizarre to me (a parent) that they would stay clear of a subject area most likely to have safeguarding risks.

*Equally happy to hear from anybody else who knows about what is going on in schools, BTW

IMO, schools should use the NHSE MindEd guidance for supporting gender distressed pupils. The two go hand in hand-Govt guidance and practical NHS advice on how to support pupils, both in line with Cass

https://www.minded.org.uk/Catalogue/Index?HierarchyId=0_59819&programmeId=59819

Don't blame schools for this mess.

School sat back and let outside organisations tell their students that sex isn't real and its possible to change sex. They weren't transparent with parents about what they were teaching. They let children dictate name and pronoun changes. They have put pressure on other children to call boys girls and girls boys.

Schools are a huge part of this mess.

I agree that the government does need to clearly state what happens to the children already socially transitioned.

Schools outsourced their thinking. They are totally to blame. They should have stood up for teachers who refused to cave and we'd not be in this shitshow of a situation.

Parents who wanted to take a cautious approach towards social transition have been (for the most part) treated horrifically by their child’s school. So many ended up reported to social services for not supporting their child’s gender identity. The damage that has been done to so many families is horrendous.

And it didn’t matter how much we showed that there was a lack of evidence for a child led approach or how many experienced clinicians were expressing concerns or the holes in the school’s legal claims. We were shut down and put under immense pressure to affirm.

(with the caveat of course that I’m in Scotland and nothing will change here- my daughter’s former school is still keeping social transition secret from parents where the child does not want them to know- nothing to do with safeguarding concerns, purely the child’s wishes from age 12+)

As a teacher, I agree that schools bear a huge responsibility here. My school would have socially transitioned several students had I not pushed back hard against the proposed school guidance. I am lucky that my school listened to me and some members of SLT engaged their brains. Schools which were socially transitioning students amd hiding the fact from parents made an active choice to do so and should be held responsible.

The point being made in the guidance, is that pronouns are not a neutral act of kindness without consequence or wider impact, and that other children's interests have to be considered as of equal importance. And that this has long been presented as a truth and the only acceptable view, whereas those who do not agree and have other views are equally worthy of respect.

Yes, it's going to be uncomfortable to move things back to a more neutral place, but that more neutral place serves all children's interests more equally. To leave things where they currently are because it would be too upsetting to affect children who are gender questioning merely makes clear that within this ideology those children's feelings and impact matters but other children's don't. And continues to preserve the territory that has enabled schools to transition children behind parents' backs, and to help children down a path towards medicalisation that there is no knowing how many will come to regret and be seriously harmed by. The pronouns are an intrinsic part of the whole. They also play a large part in confusing children that they can change sex, and has enabled situations where children have been required to undress in the presence of a child of the opposite sex despite their discomfort because the pronouns enforced the illusion that this child was not of the sex they in fact were.

This muddle shouldn't have been allowed to happen, I completely agree. To work on undoing it now is better late than never.

I think that @noblegiraffe is asking a good question that no one here seems to have addressed yet and apparently isn't in the guidance.

What about pupils who have already socially transitioned in school with or without the consent of their parents ?

What will happen on 2nd January, or after the consultation period? Do schools just retransition, or keep the status quo, or what?

I'd expect/hope that the toilets/PE changing/PE sports would immediately be rectified?

Schools legitimise 'transition' in a way social media never could. When children are taught gender ideology alongside physics and history from an early age, of course they are going to believe its true.

Also, for a typical 12/13/14 year old school will be a huge part of their life outside of the home. Where else could lots of children transition if not at school?

The fact that some schools have dozens of trans and enbie students should have raised alarm within school management. Didnt they think their acceptance might have played a part?

I should think they will have to comply, since the guidance sets out the law.

And only an 18yo could have a GRC.

And you cannot, not comply with the law.

I can’t see that any boy will be in the girls’ changing rooms etc regardless of any earlier decisions