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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans archdeacon story in the Telegraph – and my dilemma

151 replies

RevUlsion · 17/12/2023 15:09

The Telegraph reports that a vicar is being investigated for calling trans archdeacon Rachel Mann a ‘bloke’.

Comments from Telegraph readers are predictable: ‘Well he is a bloke, and the Church is selling out to woke ideology’. Comments from gender critical people too: ‘Here we go again: another man pretending to be a woman.’

On the other side, progressives inside and outside the Church are outraged at what they see as disrespect and bigotry.

My dilemma is that I’m strongly gender critical, but I suspect a small number of people have real gender dysphoria (as opposed to AGP, sexual motives for entering women’s spaces etc). If anybody has real gender dysphoria, Rachel Mann does.

Somebody with long-term dysphoria who goes as far as having their bits removed as an adult, as Rachel has, instinctively seems to me quite different from men with penises and wigs demanding access to women’s spaces.

Interested to know what others think about this distinction.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/16/church-of-england-investigates-vicar-trans-archdeacon/

Church of England investigates vicar after he calls trans archdeacon a ‘bloke’

The Rev Brett Murphy faces official rebuke over ‘intentionally derogatory and disrespectful’ remarks

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/16/church-of-england-investigates-vicar-trans-archdeacon/

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TempestTost · 18/12/2023 16:51

RoyalCorgi · 18/12/2023 11:48

Rowan Williams, Steve Chalke and others wrote in an open letter last year that being trans is a 'sacred journey of becoming whole'.

What utter bollocks.

Yeah, people always tell me RW is a real intellectual, having signed that letter cemented all the doubts I had about him.

Unfortunately the Cof E and the Anglican tradition more generally have pretty much lost any real tradition of intellectual or philosophical rigour.

ArthurbellaScott · 18/12/2023 17:04

JellySaurus · 18/12/2023 16:28

Perhaps Alistair Crowley's commandment is more attractive to this brand of clergy: Do What Thou Wilt.

Just for the sake of pedantry and completion - everyone always seems to disregard the crucial first part of that 'commandment' - 'so long as it harms none, do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law'.

JellySaurus · 18/12/2023 17:05

DeanElderberry · 18/12/2023 16:31

No, he didn't say that. The closest he came was the thing about the Sabbath being made for man, not man for the Sabbath, which opens the possibilities of how you act in order to keep it holy. But not that keeping the sabbath holy is no longer necessary. And he was steeped in Old Testament knowledge - having a new Covenant does not imply the abolition of the old Covenant - just opening it up to all humanity, not just the descendants of Abraham.

Wasn't that what legitimised dropping other observances?

I admit I'm not all that well-informed on this topic, but here e we have Christians picking and choosing what to practice. Made in God's image/male and female created he them/thou shalt not lie/thou shalt not covet etc. Not to mention playing fast and loose with Deuteronomy 22,5: The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

JellySaurus · 18/12/2023 17:07

Just for the sake of pedantry and completion - everyone always seems to disregard the crucial first part of that 'commandment' - 'so long as it harms none, do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law'.

How interesting! I have never heard that at all. Totally changes it. Thank you for being pedantic 😁

DeanElderberry · 18/12/2023 17:24

Not lying or coveting are commandments.

Made in Gods image/male and female/dust of the earth/Adam and Eve are from the two (slightly different) creation stories in Genesis.

Carrying on the theme of two different ways of expressing and understanding everything, Deuteronomy and Leviticus are alternative ways of reading and interpreting the law (not the commandments, the law deriving from them) and appropriate practice within it (Mary Douglas is really interesting on that). I think it is fair to say that Deuteronomy justifies unequivocal condemnation of blokes who nick women's underwear and wear it.

Jesus' summary was 'love and honour God, and love your neighbour as yourself'. Nothing about abandoning the covenant or the commandments, but a reminder not to over-complicate things.

Gnosticism- that's a whole other thing and very interesting in the context of this thread - if you're into late antique and medieval theology and heresies.

TinselAngel · 18/12/2023 19:16

Though shalt not covet thy neighbours ox and arse.

TempestTost · 18/12/2023 19:37

The usual way it's put is that moral rules still stand, which is what the 10 commandments are.

After the Council of Jerusalem, specific observances that were meant specifically for the Jews were dropped, notably circumcision. So gentiles who became Christians weren't expected to go through the ritual elements of becoming Jewish, or to observe Jewish laws around things like diet. The question was centered around whether Christianity was meant for all, a universal religion, or was essentially a type of Judaism, for Jews. There was already at that time an understanding of a division around moral laws and observances meant specifically for Jews within Judaism.

SaffronSpice · 18/12/2023 19:56

catduckgoose · 18/12/2023 17:31

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/survey-finds-2-of-anglican-priests-are-not-believers-9821899.html

It's not so unusual for C of E priests to have beliefs that are incompatible with Christianity.

Traditionally it was: first son inherits the estate, second son is bought a commission in the army, third son is given a living (parish priest) in the church.

I think more and more Christians are seeing the Church of England as incompatible with Christianity.

ArthurbellaScott · 18/12/2023 20:13

JellySaurus · 18/12/2023 17:07

Just for the sake of pedantry and completion - everyone always seems to disregard the crucial first part of that 'commandment' - 'so long as it harms none, do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law'.

How interesting! I have never heard that at all. Totally changes it. Thank you for being pedantic 😁

I think Crowley was a right odd bugger, fwiw.

But that phrase of his that is so often quoted is presumably taken from the Wiccan/neo pagan 'rede'. A bit unclear what that was based on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiccan_morality

JellySaurus · 18/12/2023 21:26

Many years ago I worked for an academic publisher, which is where I came across AC. So what I ever knew about him came from randomly dipping into some rather dense tomes - none of which were Wiccan texts.

TempestTost · 18/12/2023 21:49

He was really a very nasty piece of work.

RevUlsion · 18/12/2023 21:51

PrinceYakimov · 18/12/2023 14:55

Tom Wright also thinks there are clear parallels with Gnosticism - he has cautiously stuck his head over the parapet.

I have a lot of time for Rowan Williams but I was really frustrated by that letter, particularly as it was arguing for a trans conversion therapy ban. It just showed a total lack of grip over the practical issues it would cause for therapists, priests, parents, teachers and children.

Perusing Rachel Mann's pre-ordination career: it looks like Rachel was married to a woman before transition, subsequently was unsuccessful first time at BAP and moved diocese before finally being approved for ordination. I don't know how common it is for someone to be ordained after not being recommended by one BAP, but it shows that someone somewhere had serious doubts.

Tom Wright is good – he challenges lazy thinking that accommodates faith to the spirit of the age. Completely agree about Rowan's (and his co-signatories') naivety on the implications of a trans conversion therapy ban.

I've heard a few people recommend Embodied by Preston Sprinkle as a thoughtful Christian perspective on trans issues, so have just ordered it.

OP posts:
BlackeyedSusan · 18/12/2023 22:58

TinselAngel · 18/12/2023 19:16

Though shalt not covet thy neighbours ox and arse.

excellent.

TinselAngel · 19/12/2023 00:01

I'm so pleased somebody appreciated it!

ARockIsASlowSlowCooledOffFlameAndACradle · 19/12/2023 05:23

@ArthurbellaScott Possibly (and ironically enough) St Augustine's 5th century maxim, "Dilige, et quod vis fac."
Love, and do what you will.

ArthurbellaScott · 19/12/2023 07:28

ARockIsASlowSlowCooledOffFlameAndACradle · 19/12/2023 05:23

@ArthurbellaScott Possibly (and ironically enough) St Augustine's 5th century maxim, "Dilige, et quod vis fac."
Love, and do what you will.

Oh, fascinating! Yes, that sounds very plausible. There was a vague suggestion on the Wiki of a corruption of 'love thy neighbour as thyself' too, iirc.

HoneyButterPopcorn · 19/12/2023 07:45

Froodwithatowel · 17/12/2023 15:54

Why should it be a punishable offense to state a fact just because the person you are talking about would prefer you to lie?

There is no point that a man stops being a man. Your conditional willingness to pretend is your own choice - and it should be everyone else's too.

”thou shalt not lie” 🤔

SaffronSpice · 19/12/2023 11:11

There was a vague suggestion on the Wiki of…

Not the most reliable source then.

ArthurbellaScott · 19/12/2023 12:03

SaffronSpice · 19/12/2023 11:11

There was a vague suggestion on the Wiki of…

Not the most reliable source then.

Given that it's a half remembered throwaway comment based on my shit memory, indeed it's not!

JellySaurus · 19/12/2023 12:14

JellySaurus · 18/12/2023 16:28

Perhaps Alistair Crowley's commandment is more attractive to this brand of clergy: Do What Thou Wilt.

This statement still stands.

Just for the sake of pedantry and completion - everyone always seems to disregard the crucial first part of that 'commandment' - 'so long as it harms none, do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law'.

It all depends on your definition of 'harms' and 'none'. For people who expect everybody else to live by their own definition of 'woman', defining 'so long s as it harms none' can be equally flexible

Froodwithatowel · 19/12/2023 12:20

The 'your inalienable right to wave your arms around ends at someone else's nose' line in the sand.

Even if for reasons of access and inclusion your need to wave your arms around should absolutely be accommodated, this can be done by providing extra planned space. It certainly should not ever require others to stand and submit to being hit incase the arm waver feels 'excluded' by that additional space.

ArthurbellaScott · 19/12/2023 12:34

JellySaurus · 19/12/2023 12:14

This statement still stands.

Just for the sake of pedantry and completion - everyone always seems to disregard the crucial first part of that 'commandment' - 'so long as it harms none, do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law'.

It all depends on your definition of 'harms' and 'none'. For people who expect everybody else to live by their own definition of 'woman', defining 'so long s as it harms none' can be equally flexible

This'll be the difference between broad moral principles and regulation and legislation - the latter needs to be really 100% clear and unambiguous. I suppose an organisation like the church may find it hard to translate the former into the latter.

PrinceYakimov · 19/12/2023 21:06

Returning to the OP's question about genuine gender dysphoria (so setting aside cases where AGP or abusive behaviour is at play), I think the church response depends very much on what the claim is for what genuine gender dysphoria actually is. And that is where the real difficulty is, because it seems incredibly hard to pin down and articulate it in a generalisable way that doesn't rely on reaching for Gnostic concepts.

I think there are two ways you can jump on that observation. One is that the mutability and lack of precision in claims about what gender and gender dysphoria are means that we should be sceptical about treating them as a stable, objective concept. The second admits of the possibility that there are people with 'real' dysphoria who are using the Gnostic framing because they've learned that that is the language which our culture responds to.

So say that there is 'real dysphoria' - we first need to be clear about what this is, and then formulate a response to it, including whether transition, from a Christian pov, is something the church should support and, crucially, what we actually mean by it if we "affirm".

Assuming you reject the Gnostic conceptualisation of gender identity (which I have to say I do think we should just straightforwardly reject as Christians) then the best candidate for 'real dysphoria' is probably something like 'a deep and permanent sense of discomfort with one's sexed body'. The question then is what the right pastoral response is to that.

Any pastoral response, it seems to me, has to acknowledge that there are natural hard limits to how fully the church can embrace transition - i.e. it can't mean an uncritical acceptance of the idea that someone is "really" the other sex. Firstly, there's a hard limit on baptism. Trans people have sometimes wanted a second baptism in their new name. We should be unequivocal that baptism is a one-time thing. Secondly there should be (in my view) a hard limit on affirming transition in contexts where sex matters, like parish safeguarding - it should never be the case that we don't recognise sex for safeguarding purposes. Thirdly, where transition is implicated in the breakdown of a marriage or the break-up of family relationships, we need to be clear that this is a grave matter, that the non-trans spouse or family have clear pastoral needs too, and that straighforwardly affirming transition may not be the right pastoral response as far as they are concerned. Fourthly, we should be clear that creation is good, and that there are no 'wrong bodies'.

Then there's a set of wider pastoral issues that are less clear cut but which need considered responses, like what do you say to congregants who think that transition is a form of lying, how do you run single sex social or study groups, how do you present transition to children in the congregation, and how do you deal with AGP and men who want to gatecrash women's spaces if you are affirming some people but not others.

So can the church be inclusive on transition? I think my answer is, possibly, in some circumstances, yes, but it needs very strong pastoral leadership, clear articulation of where the limits of affirming transition are, a lot of emotional and spiritual maturity on the part of the trans person and the rest of the congregation, and a clear conviction that the costs of doing it are not too high to bear. And in all this there is the question of should: we may need to weigh whether we are truly acting in the best interests of the trans person by affirming, rather than supporting them to accept the truth about their body or live with the discomfort in the way we ask other people to make sacrifices as part of following Christ.

A very imperfect analogy here is that a church I used to attend got into trouble with the bishop for using only alcohol-free wine at communion (this was not in the CofE). This was an inclusion measure, so that a small number of alcoholics who were in the congregation and wanted to be completely abstinent didn't feel reminded of that every time they took communion. The bishop came down very hard on this and made it clear that inclusion couldn't come at the cost of putting aside canon law, which says that you need to use real wine. So we had to accept that we couldn't have perfect inclusion in the way we wanted to, and the individuals affected had to accept they couldn't take communion in both kinds, and had to live with the reminder of that.

RevUlsion · 19/12/2023 21:31

PrinceYakimov · 19/12/2023 21:06

Returning to the OP's question about genuine gender dysphoria (so setting aside cases where AGP or abusive behaviour is at play), I think the church response depends very much on what the claim is for what genuine gender dysphoria actually is. And that is where the real difficulty is, because it seems incredibly hard to pin down and articulate it in a generalisable way that doesn't rely on reaching for Gnostic concepts.

I think there are two ways you can jump on that observation. One is that the mutability and lack of precision in claims about what gender and gender dysphoria are means that we should be sceptical about treating them as a stable, objective concept. The second admits of the possibility that there are people with 'real' dysphoria who are using the Gnostic framing because they've learned that that is the language which our culture responds to.

So say that there is 'real dysphoria' - we first need to be clear about what this is, and then formulate a response to it, including whether transition, from a Christian pov, is something the church should support and, crucially, what we actually mean by it if we "affirm".

Assuming you reject the Gnostic conceptualisation of gender identity (which I have to say I do think we should just straightforwardly reject as Christians) then the best candidate for 'real dysphoria' is probably something like 'a deep and permanent sense of discomfort with one's sexed body'. The question then is what the right pastoral response is to that.

Any pastoral response, it seems to me, has to acknowledge that there are natural hard limits to how fully the church can embrace transition - i.e. it can't mean an uncritical acceptance of the idea that someone is "really" the other sex. Firstly, there's a hard limit on baptism. Trans people have sometimes wanted a second baptism in their new name. We should be unequivocal that baptism is a one-time thing. Secondly there should be (in my view) a hard limit on affirming transition in contexts where sex matters, like parish safeguarding - it should never be the case that we don't recognise sex for safeguarding purposes. Thirdly, where transition is implicated in the breakdown of a marriage or the break-up of family relationships, we need to be clear that this is a grave matter, that the non-trans spouse or family have clear pastoral needs too, and that straighforwardly affirming transition may not be the right pastoral response as far as they are concerned. Fourthly, we should be clear that creation is good, and that there are no 'wrong bodies'.

Then there's a set of wider pastoral issues that are less clear cut but which need considered responses, like what do you say to congregants who think that transition is a form of lying, how do you run single sex social or study groups, how do you present transition to children in the congregation, and how do you deal with AGP and men who want to gatecrash women's spaces if you are affirming some people but not others.

So can the church be inclusive on transition? I think my answer is, possibly, in some circumstances, yes, but it needs very strong pastoral leadership, clear articulation of where the limits of affirming transition are, a lot of emotional and spiritual maturity on the part of the trans person and the rest of the congregation, and a clear conviction that the costs of doing it are not too high to bear. And in all this there is the question of should: we may need to weigh whether we are truly acting in the best interests of the trans person by affirming, rather than supporting them to accept the truth about their body or live with the discomfort in the way we ask other people to make sacrifices as part of following Christ.

A very imperfect analogy here is that a church I used to attend got into trouble with the bishop for using only alcohol-free wine at communion (this was not in the CofE). This was an inclusion measure, so that a small number of alcoholics who were in the congregation and wanted to be completely abstinent didn't feel reminded of that every time they took communion. The bishop came down very hard on this and made it clear that inclusion couldn't come at the cost of putting aside canon law, which says that you need to use real wine. So we had to accept that we couldn't have perfect inclusion in the way we wanted to, and the individuals affected had to accept they couldn't take communion in both kinds, and had to live with the reminder of that.

This is incredibly helpful, thanks. Lots of issues I hadn't thought about.

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