Young Vic theatre: gender neutral loos... with urinals

[PotteringPondering]

Others have commented here on venues where the loos are gender neutral, with open urinals. But I hadn't seen it up close myself till this evening.

It was at London's Young Vic theatre. The loo choice is Gender Neutral With Cubicles, or Gender Neutral With Cubicles & Urinals.

Of course, this basically means women's loos and men's loos. Except that's not what it says on the doors. And if With Cubicles is busy, the clear message is that women should use With Cubicles & Urinals.

But in With Cubicles & Urinals, any woman heading for a cubicle has to walk past rows of men standing peeing into urinals.

This is farcical. So much indignity and embarrassment; so much that's utterly inappropriate. All because of a stupid cultural fad. I'm fuming.

It is all about ideological performativity. What people really think and feel is subordinated to this. So bizarre! When performance is more important than reality you are caught in this weird dystopian space.

Manchester's new Aviva studios just has gender neutral toilets too - furthermore, they are not even that sheltered from the huge communal atrium outside. Nobody likes or feels comfortable with this arrangement.

So you're not comfortable with the idea of using the men's toilets yourself, which I would suggest is a commonly held view, and yet you think women sharing their toilets with men will somehow even things out. Righto.

Anyway I think I'm done trying to hold a coherent conversation. Have a good day.

The problem, as I'm sure you must realise, is that will always be men who will use the 'gender neutral' women's facilities through fetishistic impulse. Why should women and girls be subject to this? Especially young girls and teenage girls who are having to deal with their first period, for example?

It is so unnecessary, and why? Just to permit a few men who 'identify as women' the opportunity to feel validated or turned on?

I dunno. It just doesn't bother me if everybody is in cubicles. It's been like that for years in many places. I personally don't see the fuss.

Cubicles with spaces above/below for cameras are problematic in unisex spaces.

(as cameras get smaller and cheaper they can be planted in any cubicle of course)

I don't think it has been that common at all.

I don't see how you don't understand the issues as they've been described?

Do you also feel comfortable using such facilities in the night time economy?

There aren't issues for me if everybody is in cubicles. You are only sharing a sink and I'm happy to do that with whoever and have done for years, also showers at the swimming pool. I get that other women don't like it and the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" argument but for me it's not a problem.

Nobody likes it, no one. Everyone would prefer single sex facilities. The only people who don't, are those who enjoy violating boundaries.

And yes, it will have to be men making their feelings felt that will make the difference, because as PP have already said, no one listens to women.

I don't disagree with making a fuss in the men's toilets, to be honest. Much as I don't want them to be uncomfortable, we need their support.

You could even just say, surely you don't like this chaps, can you please complain because they're not listening to us.

Can you imagine asking your mate in the next door cubicle for a tampon/bit of loo roll/tissue? Or coming out with blood on your hands? Or helping your elderly female relative past all the men pissing?

it's pointless virtue signalling, that does nothing except signal their craven stupidity.

I predict it will change when somebody collapses behind the door and nobody realise, or if they do realise then they can’t get to them. Then hopefully it will get publicised and the theatre will feel that they can justify changing them back to single sex ‘for the greater good’.

My Dd (with epilepsy and no awareness before seizures) wanted to go to the theatre so I asked the manufacturer of their new mixed sexed toilets how to get in in an emergency. He said no one had asked that before. I told him there is no toilet door gap so you don’t have the visibility to see if someone has collapsed but when people do they fall forwards against the door. He admitted they was no way of knowing and that to open the inward-opening door you would have to take if off its frame that involves special tools. Theres a video on YouTube that goes into detail how to do it apparently but theatre staff wouldn’t know that.

If someone feels ill in the theatre, (pre heart attack, stroke, concussion, drug issues, fever, diabetes etc) they normally head to the toilet. That’s true of any sex or gender.

Toilets that are mixed sex are designed without a door gap or ability to climb over as it is recognised that they are less private and the phone problem.

The safest toilets for everyone (could literally be a matter of life/death) are single sex toilets with door gaps so people at their most vulnerable have more chance to be safeguarded. That also includes risk of sexual assaults and drug use. The increase in mixed sex toilets in schools is of particular concern knowing that Parliament discussed there was at least one rape reported per school day inside a British school premises in 2015.

And the thing is, five minutes ago, everybody knew this. Everybody knew what the gaps were for.

We're reinventing the bloody wheel, all the time.

@Datun thank you. It is so obvious.

I agree. I've never been able to articulate it that clearly, but the lack of gaps always worries me.

I have a very dim memory of being sent under a door gap as a tiny child because the lady on the other side couldn't undo the door lock. (In hindsight, maybe she had arthritis in her hands?) If it had been a floor to ceiling one, what would have been done?

And she was merely locked in, not actually unconscious!

My friends and I rescued a student in a nightclub by going over a loo door and unlocking it from the inside. I saw a blue hand sticking out the door gap. She was covered in vomit and unconscious and we pulled her away from the door to open it (it opened inwards) and called staff who called an ambulance. Would not have seen her had the door been full length.

My family business. Gents always stinks and some of the men insist on peeing on the seat. No matter how many awkward emails etc.
My husband says men’s loos are alway dirtier. Don’t attack me over this as I have no evidence. But he says it’s true. So that’s just another thing to deal with.

A letter to the Young Vic congratulating them on that very point sounds like a good idea.

I think one of the issues for me is the use of language. They aren't gender neutral, they are mixed sex. Doesn't sound quite as warm and fuzzy that way though.

Letter sent this afternoon. Including that very point.

Same thing in the Old Vic London. Bloody stupid - one door saying “10 cubicals” and another door saying “2 cubicals and 10 urinals”

So basically men’s loo and women’s loo.

Sun total of zero women using the urinal one nor any men using the cubical only. Prob because there was a fucking massive queue (as always) for the “Cubical” only loo aka women’s lav!!!!!

So irritated by this stupid, mimsey “gender neutral” fucking language. Just pay the money to put in a “gender neutral” loo and stop fucking about with the women’s loos!!

To me these loos are the worst of all. The vast majority of women and decent men go in the sex appropriate toilet - it is obvious which is which, but any perv can access the opposite sex toilet without anyone being able to say anything.I don't think it is fair to make men like my son and husband who would only ever use the correct sex toilets feel uncomfortable.

OnAPostItNote · Today 17:19

Gents always stinks and some of the men insist on peeing on the seat. No matter how many awkward emails etc. My husband says men’s loos are alway dirtier. Don’t attack me over this as I have no evidence.

You're not wrong, I used to dislike it intensely when my daughter was small and I needed to take her to the loo. Always, always had to wipe piss off the seat, the drill her to wait whilst I washed my hands and then get back to hold her, so she didn't fall in.

I went back to the Young Vic after not being there for a while, and what they've basically done is re-brand their single sex loos as unisex loos without making any interior changes. And the same with the Lyric Hammersmith - although there are still some single sex loos there - they're just quite well-hidden. In my experience, it is always worth checking with venue staff as to whether there are any single-sex loos on the premises, as a lot have retained them in less prominent positions.

Everyone used to know this. It's a bit akin to the two-week dustbin collection because everyone seems to have forgotten it's not about recycling and saving carbon footprints, so only send out half the bin lorries, it's about public health, control of vermin and the prevention of diseases, so the dustbins need emptying at least once a week. Ditto gaps under doors - they are for safety, so single-sex provision is not only about privacy and safety from assault but also about saving lives.

Even in single sex toilet it's increasingly common to have cubicles with no gaps - does give me panicked moments if lock then sticks.

Over a year ago we went to a venue with two sets of toilets no indication which had urinals - put us off going there. We ended up the again recently as no where else had space to get a meal - they'd redone them to open plan to reception area mixed sex floor to ceiling cubicles - and it was packed full of pushchair and young kids -turns out changes were popular with families and it felt safer to leave pushchair outside cubicle and there was more space. Staff said it had increased family traffic to venue but had no effect on market they'd thought they were aiming at.

Also noticed a trend for more coffee shop style loos ie single self contained toilets with basin and dryers in- recent trip to Uni museum had about 6 opening directly onto corridor.

I know changing villages get a back rep on here - but 3 out of 4 I've encountered were better for us especially when kids were young - the fourth was a bad designed nightmare with gaps and had constant voyeur complaints to point regulars just used the toilets to change in.

I'm not sure I'm keen on mixed toilets personally but if venues are going down that route they need to do more than just change signs.

Used to be the same at the Barbican cinema 1. Except men were quie frequently using the gender neutral wine without urinals. I started using the one with urinals.

Much to my fully stonewalled TWAW friends horror. “But what about the men using the urinal?”

I give up. Only men matter.