Why can’t people accept that some transwomen are just conmen? Telegraph article

[AsexualHealing]

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/why-t-people-accept-trans-070000515.html

Suzanne Moore column which mentions Melissa Poulton.

I read it in the telegraph this morning. Powerful closing line!

Another powerful statement:
"We were the people who fought Section 28, who nursed men dying of Aids, who rejected gender stereotypes. To be told that gay children are born in the wrong bodies, or that a man in a miniskirt and fishnets can represent us better than we can represent ourselves, is ridiculous. Another joke for your cracker."

And they allowed comments.

Loved this piece. Turns out it was a good thing she was pushed out of the Guardian as now she can write stuff like this. Fuckwits. There were so many good bits but the part that really spoke to me was this: 'Call me naïve, but I thought those who cared about the planet would not want to encourage lifelong medication, a reliance on drug companies and pumping people full of hormones forever.'

It really captures one of the key issues I have with this whole movement, both in terms of the general Green support and also the general support from the world of counselling, although it's looking like the latter could be changing.

Unless, of course, you believe that putting on a paper crown makes you actual royalty.
Precisely.

Great article

"I know trans people who, having struggled with dysphoria and terrible mental health, feel much more at peace after transition." This is so irrelevant! Surely the relevant thing is comparing -

1/ Individual's mental health and happiness before and after transition (as predicted by research / statistics!)

2/ Individual's mental health and happiness before and after mental health support which does not lead to transition (as predicted by research / statistics!)

3/ The cost to society of transition (both the costs of any medical intervention, plus the cost to society of dealing with people's cross-sex demands after they transition - the latter being an insanely high cost as this board proves daily)

4/ The cost to society of providing mental health support which does not lead to transition

I strongly suspect that whilst some trans people might benefit from transition that says precisely nothing about whether they would have been happier with proper mental health support instead of transition, and it says nothing about the ridiculously high cost to society of medial transition, and the relatively low cost to society of giving proper mental health support.

"So who has this mystical ability to spot “true trans women” from fake ones? Well, most of us, actually."

I don't - a man in a dress is a walking talking safeguarding red flag who is always 0% woman. That some appear to have made no effort and some have made none proves nothing.

Because to accept that some men were just con-men would lead one to questioning the entire baisis of gender identity. That simply dressing or "identifying as" a woman does not make you a woman. If you are something you don't need to identify as it.

So fucking obvious! Which is why nobody is even permitted to question it. We must all be suspended in a state of unreality and disconnection. Dystopia.

Kind of misses the point.

Which is 100% of "trans women" are MEN.

So in that sense they are all a con.

Yes, there still remains this protected idea that are 'genuine' trans people. But who is to know or question when the 'reality' is situated entirely in the person's head.

If we could get into their head what could be proven? That they genuinely believe that they have a cross sex gendered soul or that they really were born in the wrong body? That sex is genuinely unimportant and that one's internal sense of gender is very important?

All we can possibly conclude is that they are "genuine" in the delusion or the amount they have bought into a belief system there is still nothing genuine about their cross sex claims.

I suspect that a 'genuine' transwman is one with the sort of gender dysphoria that resembles the body dysphoria suffered by people with anorexia. Not a discomfort or a wish to be different, but an unshakeable belief that they ARE different. A state of mind comparable to that of the severely underweight person who looks in the mirror and sees an obese person, or the stroke survivor who cannot understand why there is a leg in the bed with them and tries to throw it out but to their horror it is attached to them.

We do not offer bariatric surgery to anorexia sufferers...

I think she's being clever. "True trans" is obvious bollocks and I don't know if she really believes it but it's a way of putting "two types" into people's heads.

If people start allowing themselves to acknowledge some "conmen" TW exist, they'll quickly start noticing that they're a majority. AGPs set off deceptiveness alarms for very good reasons, but we get socialised to suppress that.

Totally agree. My problem as a teacher is once the school agree there is no way I can deadname or challenge in any way and I wouldn't want to either, these are kids. 16yr old boys and girls but kids. And I have to teach them so they must believe I love them unconditionally and am happy with them, which again I'll always do no matter how much of a shit they might be.

in other words while no one has the mysterious power to spot a "true transwoman" whatever that might be, we've all got the power to tell an HSTS from an AGP. The battle's won if the general public can allow themselves to make that distinction, and it doesn't really matter what name people give it.

I quite like this "conmen" vs true trans distinction, because autogynephilia is hard to spell and even harder to believe.

Why should they believe you love them unconditionally? You are not their parent. And it is not love to lie to them that they can change sex, support a delusion, or encourage them (via the powerful psychological intervention that is social transition) down the path to be a lifelong medical patient. Nor is it loving to your other students to gaslight them.

I don't think that's what Boomboom meant? I think she was speaking about the unconditional approval / respect / interest that you offer to children you teach. A respectful warmth and acceptance that you hope means they'll trust you, know you'll listen to them and allows them to take your feedback / criticism in the manner in which it's given. It's what good teachers do.

Dealing with them when they're so vulnerable & mentally fragile, pretending they're the opposite sex is a complete mindfuck for all concerned. But it's not up to individual adults to start challenging individual children about this which is why it's so difficult to manage in schools.

the unconditional approval / respect / interest that you offer to children you teach

I can't think of a single teacher I've known (including - perhaps especially - those I most liked and respected) who unconditionally respected and approved of their pupils. I wouldn't have trusted any who did, and would have taken it as an indication of very poor judgement.

But it's not up to individual adults to start challenging individual children about this

Do include not challenging boys undressing in the girl’s changing room? What about children bullying other children for not using a child’s opposite sex pronouns?

Spot on.

I particularly enjoyed the paper crown analogy.

"women are simply “support humans” for delusional males."

Quite. What bothers me is the insistence that everyone else stop what they're doing and give these people their full attention/ whatever they may be demanding that particular day.

I don't need to be validated as a woman, I just am one and have every right to an autonomous existence the same as every man even if he fancies presenting himself as a woman. And it's all about the presenting - trans wouldn't exist in a vacuum. It has to have others to validate it, admire it and to feed off. It's just inequality all over again - believing women only exist to serve men, or serve a purpose for them and therefore are lesser.

it's not up to individual adults to start challenging individual children about this

Why not? And what do you consider a 'challenge'?

The individual adults can refuse to pander to the individual child's demands, they can refuse to pretend that the child has charged sex, or has no sex. They can refuse access to opposite sex facilities where they are segregated for good reason. Are these the sort of 'challenge' you refer to?