So what constitutes an "exceptional circumstance" then?

[Tacotortoise]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-67613441

After much mature reflection the Scottish government have now decided that women's prisons are not the place for trans women with a history of harming women. Yay!

...except in "exceptional circumstances ". Not yay.

So can anyone please tell me, what are the exceptional circumstances in which it would be reasonable even to consider sending a rapist or abuser of women to a women's prison?

I can't think of a single one. Which makes me wonder why these weasel words were included at all. Is it to appease trans activists? Or to leave a loophole to carry on as normal? And why don't the press in Scotland ask?

Maybe it's the circumstances where no one makes it public and they can do it under the radar?
Or the ones that don't own pink leggings?
They're the best I've got.

This. ^^

THIS!

When they're not 'at it'. No matter his future role in public life, Humza Yousaf will always be on hand to proclaim his judgement of 'at it' or 'not at it'. What happens when he eventually shuffles off this mortal coil? Presumably the role passes to his eldest child, or a new proclaimer is elected with a billow of rainbow smoke announcing when the decision has been made.

Ah, that must be it. Pope Hamza of the church of gender souls?

But seriously, it is horrendous. Life is all about choices. You choose to go about raping and sexually abusing, sorry, no, you don't get to dictate which prison you go to. I do believe even the most serious offenders should be protected from violence where possible but of course that includes women prisoners, who deserve safety and dignity just like the men. TW do not belong in women's prisons under any circumstances. If they also don't belong in men's prisons then a different option must be found.

This. It means someone somewhere can do whatever they like.

Not how laws are supposed to work. 😔

It is horrendous. Its basically saying that no crime is so serious that the law should categorically prioritise women's safety over men's desires.

'Trans women who have hurt or threatened women or girls will not be held in female prisons unless there are "exceptional" circumstances'

Translation:

In 'exceptional circumstances', transwomen men who have hurt or threatened women or girls will be held in female prisons.

Can you imagine the meetings at which this was discussed?

Someone suggests that rapists or abusers should not be put into prison with women.

Someone else has said: 'But what if ...'

What is the what if, and who is saying it, and how the fuck do they sleep at night?

I do believe even the most serious offenders should be protected from violence where possible

Completely agree. Protecting vulnerable prisoners (the very worst, most depraved and violent prisoners can of course also be vulnerable) does not require putting them in a women's prison.

Well maybe if they've completely transitioned, including penis removal, they crime was committed more than a decade ago and they 'pass' as a women ?

Nope

If their crime was more than a decade ago and they're still in prison, that must have been a pretty serious crime. Access to incarcerated women shouldn't be given as a reward for good behaviour for a rapist. Even a castrated one.

Women's safety should be given priority over men's desires.

I was thinking that the crime was more than a decade ago and they've only just been caught.

No.

The wellbeing of the women in the prison is equally as important as that of any man. Even a man who is unwell enough to have castrated himself while in prison. Say for attempted murder.

Another reminder that Sarah Jane Baker, kidnapper, torturer and attempted murderer, has allegedly castrated himself. His presence in a women's prison would be terrifying.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Jane_Baker

100% a 'genuine' transwoman.

No penis.

Violent crimes committed as far as I'm aware have been limited to violence against males. No sexual crimes that I'm aware of.

Who thinks that women should be locked up with this man?

Why do you believe that any man should be in a women's prison?

Men without penises are still men.

Surely the correct answer is a specialist Transgender wing, which is both single sex (male) and single gender (they see themselves as female). They see themselves as women, their fellow prisoners see themselves as women. So they are in a "womans wing".

I think this nails it. This is what the activist lobby basically means in all senses, and we actually have governments showing that yes, they're a bit shy about admitting it but they really do believe it.

No harm to women or children is ever serious enough to justify restricting the self expression and desires of men.

Mutilation, sterilisation, ending the positive right of homosexuality, rape....?

Yes, but taking action to protect people from that would make men sad .

It is not as if the needs of diverse and vulnerable men cannot be met without throwing women to the wolves; it is perfectly possible. This is about the perceived right of men to use women, whether or not the women consent, whether or not this is in the women's best interests, and whether or not the women are seriously harmed by the use. This is merely wibbling a bit about the degree of harm.

Rhona Hotchkiss mentioned this and said it wouldn't work as numbers are so small, it would mean some prisoners would have to be sent a long way from home, which isn't fair.
Also, how would it work for the guards? Would it be male or female guards that do searches?

It comes back to basics every time; why are prisons split by sex? If the reasons are still valid, there shouldn't be any exceptions; if the reasons are no longer valid, all prisons should be mixed sex. (Obviously it's the first!)

All good points.

I was until quite recently, all for additional resources, in the belief that it is reasonable to offer the choice between a specialist unit at a distance or a local prison of the same sex and the prisoner have their preference met: it is more than other prisoners will get.

However a specialist wing was created in a female prison for male prisoners who wished to be in the female estate, but who were at the time, even under the highly vague and shrug based risk assessment system, regarded as too high a threat for women to be free in that estate. They could be in a women's prison, they could have that dignity and validation, just limited to a wing.

The males involved and their lawyers kicked off about segregation, got into the female provision anyway regardless of risk assessment and the wing was never used for that purpose.

It demonstrates that the goal is not support for identity and gender, the goal is women.

So yes. There are many, many vulnerable male prisoners of all needs, not just gender needs. The male estates need developing to meet the diverse needs of all men better. But there is no human right for a man to be provided with women's bodies as a resource. And let's face it, no other part of those women is of any interest to anyone. How they think, feel, identify...? No. Their inner lives and minds have no relevancy. This is quite simply their body as a resource without right to consent.

And that's abhorrent.

Rhona Hotchkiss mentioned this and said it wouldn't work as numbers are so small, it would mean some prisoners would have to be sent a long way from home, which isn't fair.

Isn't this already the case for women? The small number of women's prisons means that women are often sent much further from home than men are.

But don't most prisons have some accommodation for vulnerable prisoners? Why can't the trans prisoners be put in there if they are vulnerable in the main part of the prison?

The mealy-mouthed wording makes the guidelines pointless.

No men in women's prisons, ever. Dick or no dick, bollocks or no bollocks. Murder or Tax Evasion. Never, ever ever.

Why the fuck is it so difficult to get this across? (Answers on a postcard to SPS and SG).

When he throws a tantrum that he doesn't have access to women and accuses everyone around him of transphobia/bigotry/trans genocide so they get scared and just let him do what he wants.

Yes, maybe.
I wouldn't be surprised if there were more trans women prisoners that actual women prisoners. Although I say this with no idea of the actual numbers.