Egg donation - Scottish government campaign

TrainedByCats · 06/12/2023 23:03

Shocking disregard for the potential serious health risks with egg stimulation and retrieval. Reckless to group it with sperm donation.

GourmetLettuceMix · 06/12/2023 23:21

I know someone who was a donor for her sister when she was early 20s. She has suffered with an abnormal menstrual cycle ever since (now late 30s).

TempestTost · 07/12/2023 01:02

There seem to be two issues here, the health effects, and the commodification element.

The latter, presumably, will also apply to sperm donation? And to my mind, it's not just commodification of adult bodies, it's commodification of children.

IdleAnimations · 07/12/2023 02:37

Why are the SNP paying for this ad campaign? What’s their ulterior motive? Seems very odd.

MrsJamin · 07/12/2023 03:11

I don't know why snp would campaign for this why is it political? Egg donation is a thousand, no a million times more risky than a man producing sperm!

Hoardasurass · 07/12/2023 07:20

@TempestTost the commodification of women's bodies is not the same as for men.
There is no risk to life, fertility or long-term health from a man wanking into a cup! There are for women. Eggs are not replaceable, harvesting them not only reduces a women's chances of conseving naturally, its painfully invasive and requires the use of drugs which causes 1/4 of all women who take them to suffer from over stimulation of her ovires but it also kills between 2 and 14% (depending on whose stats you believe).
So, it's not the same, and quite frankly your whataboutery of men in this situation is very telling

Waitwhat23 · 07/12/2023 13:21

IdleAnimations · 07/12/2023 02:37

Why are the SNP paying for this ad campaign? What’s their ulterior motive? Seems very odd.

The SNP see women as commodities. As a resource to be exploited. This is just yet another facet of that thinking.

ahjeez · 07/12/2023 13:49

I had no idea until now that egg donations could carry such risks. I've never, ever heard of there being negative side effects.

IdleAnimations · 07/12/2023 15:19

Waitwhat23 · 07/12/2023 13:21

The SNP see women as commodities. As a resource to be exploited. This is just yet another facet of that thinking.

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SNP are the biggest misogynists, look at them backtracking of trans rapists in womens prisons.

I guess what I’m wondering is are they doing this due to low birth rates or something? Such an odd/controversial thing to put their money to.

Brefugee · 07/12/2023 15:27

Egg retrieval has proven fatal to at least two women in the UK

wait, what? I knew it was painful and a process that can't just be done as an outpatient and then shake it off (like sperm donation) but potentially fatal? WTF?

Waitwhat23 · 07/12/2023 15:36

I believe deaths are due to Ovarian Hyperstimulation Syndrome. Very rare but possible.

Waitwhat23 · 07/12/2023 15:37

www.rcog.org.uk/for-the-public/browse-our-patient-information/ovarian-hyperstimulation-syndrome-patient-information-leaflet/

Waitwhat23 · 07/12/2023 16:52

Bear in mind, that this campaign is being heavily rotated on Scottish radio - I've heard it umpteen times on Forth One. It's all very 'be kind and give someone else a special gift!!!'.

At the risk of sounding coarse, men donating will spunk into a cup. No harm, no foul. Women are potentially putting their lives on the line.

TempestTost · 07/12/2023 17:22

Hoardasurass · 07/12/2023 07:20

@TempestTost the commodification of women's bodies is not the same as for men.
There is no risk to life, fertility or long-term health from a man wanking into a cup! There are for women. Eggs are not replaceable, harvesting them not only reduces a women's chances of conseving naturally, its painfully invasive and requires the use of drugs which causes 1/4 of all women who take them to suffer from over stimulation of her ovires but it also kills between 2 and 14% (depending on whose stats you believe).
So, it's not the same, and quite frankly your whataboutery of men in this situation is very telling

Telling of what, exactly? I'm not sure what it is you imagine I am trying to say., but it's certainly not what I wrote.

Commodification does not depend on the health element. Certainly as far as health goes, egg donation is much riskier than sperm donation. That is even the case if there is no monetary element involved at all.

Commodification comes into it as soon as you pay for anyone's reproductive material, regardless of whether it is a serious health risk to provide it. Which is why for example many countries do not allow blood donors to be paid, even though it is relatively risk free.

Should we ban egg donation due to the greater risk? We do allow live donations of some organs like kidneys or livers, which can be very risky, so I would suggest that we do believe that individuals are able to make that kind of decision. But the stakes are higher, that is lifesaving for the recipient, so arguably the risks of egg donation are less balanced.

Both egg and sperm donation for money involve the commodification of bodies, which is something that needs to be very closely managed if it is allowed at all. Making something a commodity is not about risk to health, all kinds of things can be made into commodities.

Even worse, both equally involve the commodification of children, which should be completely banned.

If you want to argue the problem is the health effects, that affects women rather than men. If it's about turning bodies into a medium of exchange, than it applies to both. If you are uncomfortable with that, maybe you don't really care about commodification as much as you think.

Original poster

ArthurbellaScott · 07/12/2023 18:35

Waitwhat23 · 07/12/2023 15:37

www.rcog.org.uk/for-the-public/browse-our-patient-information/ovarian-hyperstimulation-syndrome-patient-information-leaflet/

'Mild OHSS is common in women having IVF treatment; affecting as many as 33 in 100 women (33%). However, just over 1 in 100 women (1%) will develop moderate or severe OHSS.
The risk is higher in women who:

have polycystic ovaries
are under 30 years old'

I would not call 1 in 100 that rare, tbh.

OP posts:

Waitwhat23 · 07/12/2023 19:07

Sorry, I worded that poorly. Deaths occurring from it appear to be quite rare. The severe form of the condition is not as rare. It seems to have some unpleasant outcomes nonetheless.

GardenCherisher · 07/12/2023 19:19

TempestTost · 07/12/2023 01:02

There seem to be two issues here, the health effects, and the commodification element.

The latter, presumably, will also apply to sperm donation? And to my mind, it's not just commodification of adult bodies, it's commodification of children.

Can I add a third?
The emotional effects, both on the biological children, who are often not told why they have so little in common with Mum, Dad, or both, and on the biological parents, who at some stage realise that they have children out there, who look and behave like their families and like themselves, being raised by randoms who may have no insight into their strengths and weaknesses.

"Brave New Humans" by Sarah Dingle is a good read on the topic.

Effectively this is pre-birth adoption. Gamete donation is a very, very serious matter because our genes affect us our whole lives. And yet it's being treated as though it were blood donation.

Delphinium20 · 07/12/2023 19:27

The risks aren't even well studied. There is little to no follow-up.

IdleAnimations · 07/12/2023 19:49

GardenCherisher · 07/12/2023 19:19

Can I add a third?
The emotional effects, both on the biological children, who are often not told why they have so little in common with Mum, Dad, or both, and on the biological parents, who at some stage realise that they have children out there, who look and behave like their families and like themselves, being raised by randoms who may have no insight into their strengths and weaknesses.

"Brave New Humans" by Sarah Dingle is a good read on the topic.

Effectively this is pre-birth adoption. Gamete donation is a very, very serious matter because our genes affect us our whole lives. And yet it's being treated as though it were blood donation.

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Spot on comment 👏

I always feel sorry for the kids in all this. It’s easy to say ‘they get all the love they need’ but not knowing where half your genetics have come from must be really tough to live with.

GardenCherisher · 07/12/2023 19:56

IdleAnimations · 07/12/2023 19:49

Spot on comment 👏

I always feel sorry for the kids in all this. It’s easy to say ‘they get all the love they need’ but not knowing where half your genetics have come from must be really tough to live with.

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It's not the end of the world or anything, but why would you do something ON PURPOSE to put a kid in that position? I find it hard to argue that it counts as putting the kid first.

Ardith · 07/12/2023 19:59

Wow, Scotland’s government really does hate women eh.

I had an egg retrieval as part of IVF. I had a serious life-threatening haemorrhage during the ‘retrieval’ (aka nasty surgery) and had vaginal pain for 8 months after it.

My advice to anyone is do not have any surgery that you do not absolutely have to have.

QuiltedHippo · 07/12/2023 20:04

Ew I have also had egg retrieval as part of IVF, while the emotional pressure was surely greater as I wanted my own child, it was a horrible process to go through. Painful from the injections, bloating, procedure and massively so afterwards even though I didn't have OHSS. Wild hormones. Hugely time consuming. Invasive. Awful.

TempestTost · 07/12/2023 22:44

GardenCherisher · 07/12/2023 19:19

Can I add a third?
The emotional effects, both on the biological children, who are often not told why they have so little in common with Mum, Dad, or both, and on the biological parents, who at some stage realise that they have children out there, who look and behave like their families and like themselves, being raised by randoms who may have no insight into their strengths and weaknesses.

"Brave New Humans" by Sarah Dingle is a good read on the topic.

Effectively this is pre-birth adoption. Gamete donation is a very, very serious matter because our genes affect us our whole lives. And yet it's being treated as though it were blood donation.

Show quote history

Yeah, and I think there is a kid of parallel with some of the thinking we see in gender ideology. Which is that the biological parental link is real, in a basic, material way. Whatever else we are, we are the children of two real biological parents. That is who we are, in the same way that our body is who we are. The physical biological world is real and has consequence.

Trying to create a kind of legal fiction around a sort of unembodied ideal, that tries to downplay the importance of that element of embodiment, is always an attempt to get around reality in some sense.Or say that the ideal is more important than the material.

Original poster

ArthurbellaScott · 07/12/2023 22:50

TempestTost · 07/12/2023 22:44

Yeah, and I think there is a kid of parallel with some of the thinking we see in gender ideology. Which is that the biological parental link is real, in a basic, material way. Whatever else we are, we are the children of two real biological parents. That is who we are, in the same way that our body is who we are. The physical biological world is real and has consequence.

Trying to create a kind of legal fiction around a sort of unembodied ideal, that tries to downplay the importance of that element of embodiment, is always an attempt to get around reality in some sense.Or say that the ideal is more important than the material.

Show quote history

Yes, post humanism seems to be the common thread running through 'gender' and surrogacy. Hyper consumerism says you can have any body and sex you want and any baby you want, so long as you can pay for it.

OP posts:

TempestTost · 07/12/2023 23:26

Yup, and if we say that there are no material consequences that matter, then it is so. And it becomes unjust and hateful to say otherwisse.